Mulab under the hood

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Cochrane wrote: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:32 am Sorry, but I don't get the point:
- has MuLab "as plugin" to become a CLAP plugin? If yes, very few DAWs (almost none? Maybe only Bitwig and Reaper and none of the major ones) will support it. Moreover, in less than six months one of the most important DAW and ecosystem (Stein....) has announced abandoning VST2 hosting, so MuLab "as Plugin" will not be available anymore for users of that ecosystem.
Maybe a CLAP-to-VST3 adapter will make the magic but does it exist? And, if yes, how reliable is it?

- has MuLab "as host" (and "sub-host in DAW", the most interesting point for me) to support only CLAP? how many CLAP plugins will be available now and in future which won't be also in VST2/3 format? Does VST3 SDK mandate removing existing VST2 support in hosts? (I hope not and it seems so).

In this context I don't understand how CLAP implementation will solve MuLab "as plugin" question, providing the fact that it seems all industry has moved (or is moving...) to VST3: I suggest Jo to take time evaluating the big impact that MuLab "as plugin" has in most DAWs workflow and how future VST3 support will be fundamental for this userbase.

Just my 2 cents.
I fully understand your point of view, and was asking to myself the same questions.
At some point, if you still want to be in the course, VST3 is somewhere on the path. I don't like it, but we have to face the fact. I wish CLAP would be a good solution, but for now it's very confidential.
So why introduce another layer of 3rd party software (wrapper)? And what to say about selling a soft wich requires a wrapper?

Case1) Mulab works as a VST3 plug-in and accept only CLAP plugs natively and VST3 with a wrapper (where is the logic?)

Case2) Mulab works as a CLAP plugin and requires a wrapper to be used in most DAWS, and to use VST3 plugins internally (good luck to sell it)
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Case 3... Jo develops a bridging software for ALL plugin formats, includes that in MuLab, but also sells the bridging software separately! :)

Then again... Maybe not? :hihi:
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Well, if there is a very good CLAP -> VST3 wrapper as suggested and this way VST3 plugins can be supported in MuLab I would suggest that:

- MuLab app and plugin support both VST2 + CLAP plugin hosting
- MuLab plugin comes as VST2 and CLAP plugin

VST3 is supported through the CLAP -> VST3 wrapper. This allows to wrap the MuLab CLAP plugin as VST3 for VST3 hosts.

Hosting VST3 plugins inside MuLab is the only issue that I don't currently know how to solve?! There must be a proper solution to wrap these as CLAP plugins.

For non CLAP hosts MuLab plugin exists as VST2 plugin just like it is now. VST2 support should NEVER be dropped so that older plugins can always be loaded inside of MuLab. However MuLab internally shall support CLAP as main interface for 3rd party plugins.

For me this would be okay. MuLab does not need native VST3 support in this case. But the VST3 -> CLAP wrapper must be pretty solid. Is there any right now?

Cheers,
Oli
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masterjoe wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 5:06 am
For me this would be okay. MuLab does not need native VST3 support in this case. But the VST3 -> CLAP wrapper must be pretty solid. Is there any right now?

Cheers,
Oli
The real intriguing question now is if there is yet a 'working and reliable' CLAP-to-VST3 wrapper for using future CLAP plugin version of MuTools in Cubendo, but I don't think Jo should rely on a third-party component for a such delicate feature of his beloved DAW (and plugin for DAWs...).

Believe me: VST3 is future, all major PC DAWs implement it and studying VST3 support now is a future-proof investment for a DAW and plugin maker, no matter how many months will took for having a VST3-enabled MuTools out.
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Cochrane wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:40 am Believe me: VST3 is future, all major PC DAWs implement it and studying VST3 support now is a future-proof investment for a DAW and plugin maker, no matter how many months will took for having a VST3-enabled MuTools out.
Apparently Jo doesn't possess the required knowledge to implement VST3 support and he's not willing to learn. Shame on you, Jo! ;) :P :D

P.S. Learning is good for the brain :P
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Bad analysis.

Except: Learning is good for the brain. I agree on that part.
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robert_p wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:52 am
Cochrane wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:40 am Believe me: VST3 is future, all major PC DAWs implement it and studying VST3 support now is a future-proof investment for a DAW and plugin maker, no matter how many months will took for having a VST3-enabled MuTools out.
Apparently Jo doesn't possess the required knowledge to implement VST3 support and he's not willing to learn. Shame on you, Jo! ;) :P :D

P.S. Learning is good for the brain :P
WTF. That is pretty unfair and untrue. Looking at MuLab you can see that Jo is really good at what he does! The shame is to blame on Steinberg for putting together VST3 which is a overly complicated beast. It has NOTHING to do with Jo's skills at all!

:dog:
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Too right! Sounds like something RaphT would say!

I've been supporting MuLab for around 10 years, and in that time I've seen how, at times of new extreme features, how Jo has put in a lot of time studying how to implement these features that he often knew little about. Time stretching is a perfect example. Anyone remember the time and effort Jo took to research and develop that? Now look at it! Not only that, there aren't that many devs who fix just about any issue within hours! I'd say Jo's skills as a programmer are very high indeed!
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robert_p wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:52 am
Apparently Jo doesn't possess the required knowledge to implement VST3 support and he's not willing to learn. Shame on you, Jo! ;) :P :D

P.S. Learning is good for the brain :P
I dont think you possess the required knowledge to make that assertion, and you're not willing to learn. Shame on you.

PS Condescension is bad for your health.
An idiot on Set Theory:
"In some cases there is an object called red that contains everything that is red. In much the same way a pot is a plate."
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Guys, that supposed to be a joke! Ok, maybe I have a bad sense of humour :P
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robert_p wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 10:30 am Guys, that supposed to be a joke! Ok, maybe I have a bad sense of humour :P
:o :x :clown: :party:
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robert_p wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 10:30 am Guys, that supposed to be a joke! Ok, maybe I have a bad sense of humour :P
:smack:
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robert_p wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 10:30 am Guys, that supposed to be a joke! Ok, maybe I have a bad sense of humour :P
Bad? How about timing? :dog: :hihi:
It must be a joke for the simple fact that Jo is an outstanding developer and…. I know you know that too :tu:
ABEFLGMOPPRRST :phones:
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skarabee wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 9:51 pmI wish CLAP would be a good solution, but for now it's very confidential.>
No, it's not. Anyone is free to join the fold!
skarabee wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 9:51 pmSo why introduce another layer of 3rd party software (wrapper)? And what to say about selling a soft wich requires a wrapper?
Most plugins you use today use some sort of plugin abstraction then wrappers to individual plugin formats. JUCE, iPlug2, these sorts of things, they all do it. This is perfectly normal stuff that has been done for decades really. You're nitpicking for no good reason. Wrappers are not rocket science, and are not a performance hazard. Repeat this a thousand times.
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sl23 wrote: Sat Apr 29, 2023 6:13 pm The only thing I absolutely hate about CLAP and VST3 is that they use system directories! Are they able to be moved elsewhere?
Yes, via symbolic links.
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