Mulab under the hood

[baconpaul]

The only thing I absolutely hate about CLAP and VST3 is that they use system directories! Are they able to be moved elsewhere?

Yes, via symbolic links.

CLAP allows users to specify an environment variable for their plugin path, in addition to the system defaults, which is documented here: https://github.com/free-audio/clap/blob ... ntry.h#L26

[heks]

The only thing I absolutely hate about CLAP and VST3 is that they use system directories! Are they able to be moved elsewhere?

Yes, via symbolic links.

VST3 installer dont give an option where to install. So, with a wrapper am I correct that there is a certain level of manual moving of the plugins? Or will they be automatically installed where the symbolic link directs "things"?

[sl23]

All this is not the same as portable though. I only use portable apps and that includes vst's. I am a heavy user of an app called universal extractor and SyMenu. UE extracts everything from an exe file, though some installers can't be extracted, most can, then once I have all the files from an app that I want to keep or update, I install them into SyMenu. This menu allows corrections for paths like AppData and ProgramFiles. So whenever an app is run from SyMenu any data that is normally stored there gets redirected to the apps folder instead.

Hypothetically, how do you guys cope when buying a new pc or having to reinstall windows when all your software is installed to C:.? F**k that!!!

Ive lost everything before for that reason, never again! Backup software doesn't make sense to me as synchronisation is complete rubbish. Again, lost everything, almost, using sync software that says click to sync. But it synced the wrong way despite being setup as it always was! There is no reason whatsoever that software can't be made portable even when it has dependencies. There are hundreds of examples of this.

So clap and VST3 forcing you to use system directories is down to developers and NOT restrictions of the programming. I've had devs say that their apps can't be made portable for whatever reason, but it's their limitations that make them unable to do so.

Only reason paid apps are generally not portable is to stop piracy. Something that everyone does, even if they don't realise it! All these stupid security programs like ilok and pace just bloat your pc with even more rubbish. Just like with mpc software. So much crap to install, but honestly, nothing of use to me! I bought the hardware to use the hardware, I have a daw and no amount of convenience will make me switch to the MPC daw.

Sorry for the rant, not aimed at anyone, just a rant

[baconpaul]

So clap and VST3 forcing you to use system directories is down to developers

Again, clap does not force this. It requires hosts to scan three locations, two system, and one user specified list, and has from before version 1.0

“Portable” software (ironically a windows only concept) is a different issue but one which is realizable. Surge is a fully portable vst3 and clap and the hardest part of developing that really was me understanding what the heck portable meant.

If you install the vst3 outside the system directories though some daws won’t load it because they are strictly spec compliant.

Hypothetically, how do you guys cope when buying a new pc or having to reinstall windows when all your software is installed to C:.? F**k that!!!

I’ve used Time Machine on my Mac since around 2008 and have had the same image the whole time. When I get a new computer I plug it into my usb drive and my system is identical. Does windows really not have software that does that? I’ve literally never had to think about this problem in 15 years.

[baconpaul]

Seems I can write synths but not edit posts. Doh

[baconpaul]

<deleted>

[baconpaul]

<deleted 2; that edit and quote button are awfully close. Sigh>

[sl23]

Haha! I only use windows, but as far as I'm aware, backing up C: and reinstalling that image to another PC, say a newer one, means it reinstalls EVERYTHING on C:! That means the old version of windows! So if I did that for fifteen years too, I'd still be using Vista!

Apps on windows create such a mess that it's virtually impossible to keep track of every piece of software you installed. Hence I use portable software. It completely avoids all that. As it avoids all that installation rubbish, it also doesn't clog up system resources. Install 20 apps then check what's running in your task manager even though the apps haven't been started! Bet least a few have running services or something running in the background without you ever once running the app! Portable apps don't, and by nature, can't do that.

I do realise some VST's do have a VST3 file when extracted, like u-he, but no CLAP. Unless it isn't in those installers? I tried Surge and it wasn't portable, though it was a couple years ago when I tried it. I was hoping it was at the time. Now, I've moved on.

I am considering accepting VST's that use AppData, but ONLY that folder, then it's relatively easy to back their settings up all at once. But I'd rather not have to.

[sl23]

As for symbolic links, I don't know what they are and don't want to. I was warned by a developer years ago that they shouldn't be used if you don't know what they are. So I stayed away from them.

EDIT: Ok, curiosity got me. so they are used in this situation to point to a folder that's been moved from it's 'official' location.

[baconpaul]

Ok! Well surge has been portable in production releases since July 2020 and the installer creates the hard links for you on windows.

It’s definitely the case that what to put where creates a lot of noise. Windows has good defaults but the users don’t want them so we support them but give portable bailouts. Linux has several different sets of good defaults, so defacto doesn’t and we end up branching with if statements based on your system. Mac works fine in this regard and we haven’t had a request to override there. But it’s a hard problem

The only reason I’m here though is to remind you that while portable is hard, clap neither mandates unique paths nor makes portable hard or easy but is rather below that level in the stack

[Michael L]

level in the stack

On a related question, while a CLAP-to-VST3 wrapper is being developed for the plugin side, is anyone planning a VST3-to-CLAP wrapper for the host side?

[baconpaul]

level in the stack

On a related question, while a CLAP-to-VST3 wrapper is being developed for the plugin side, is anyone planning a VST3-to-CLAP wrapper for the host side?

There’s no one working on that now, next is AU clap wrapper. But evil and I did chat about it and I gave him a thought or two on how some of the projects may be able to do it

The vst3 hosting api is … not awesome. Especially the event loop stuff on linux. So it’s not a super duper easy project

[Michael L]

Evil and I did chat about it and I gave him a thought or two on how some of the projects may be able to do it.... it’s not a super duper easy project

Thank you!

[EvilDragon]

VST3 installer dont give an option where to install. So, with a wrapper am I correct that there is a certain level of manual moving of the plugins? Or will they be automatically installed where the symbolic link directs "things"?

The latter. Here's how you do it.

1. Move C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3 to a place of your choice
2. Create a symlink from that new place of your choice to the old location

Installers will work just fine as if things are still going to the old location. This is an OS-level redirect so any file write/read operations are just passed through to the new location.

All my VST2 and VST3 plugins are on my completely separate D: drive using the above method. Never had to manually move a plugin (this sucks so much anyways especially when you want to update that same plugin - the installer cannot know where you moved things so you end up with duplicate plugin versions, it's extra manual maintenance etc etc, and noone should be doing that).

[heks]

VST3 installer dont give an option where to install. So, with a wrapper am I correct that there is a certain level of manual moving of the plugins? Or will they be automatically installed where the symbolic link directs "things"?

The latter. Here's how you do it.

1. Move C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3 to a place of your choice
2. Create a symlink from that new place of your choice to the old location

Installers will work just fine as if things are still going to the old location. This is an OS-level redirect so any file write/read operations are just passed through to the new location.

All my VST2 and VST3 plugins are on my completely separate D: drive using the above method. Never had to manually move a plugin (this sucks so much anyways especially when you want to update that same plugin - the installer cannot know where you moved things so you end up with duplicate plugin versions, it's extra manual maintenance etc etc, and noone should be doing that).

Thanks EvilDragaon,