What is the attraction with logic ?

[apoclypse]

Well, "200 bucks" and a mac... Too expensive a dongle for me. Beautiful software, though. Played for almost 20 years, but no more expensive Apple products for me nowadays, thanks.

That's fair but you don't need to go crazy to buy a Mac. A decently specced Mac mini won't break most people's wallet and will work nicely to make music. The CPU on the newer Macs doesn't change much between configurations and other than RAM that's the important part.

[jonljacobi]

I've seen this stuff about the price of Mac forever. And true, Apple are complete !@#$'s when it comes to charging for upgrades and completely lack upgradability now. But if you buy a Windows laptop or AIO with a similarly high PPI display, you're going to pay nearly as much.

The only reason I went for 32GB (M1 Mac Studio when they dropped in price) was because I occasionally load an entire orchestra into multiple instances of Kontakt to play back orchestral scores. I had a 16GB iMac at home for testing and it was more than adequate for just about anything short of that. And it wasn't actually trash doing that either.

I occasionally write for Macworld so I usually get to play with the latest stuff. Yes, the M2 and M3 benchmark faster, but sit down in front of one next to an older M1 and you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference. In other words, buying used (check the SSD usage first) or last generation can save you quite a bit. Most of the "refurbs" Apple sells as used are simply returns from users who quickly decided they wanted something else, not defective units that needed to be repaired.

And as you get Thunderbolt/USB ports you can skimp on the internal storage and add external for far less.

I still use Windows a lot for work, but it's not by choice. After I got used to the Mac a few years back, it became rather painful to go back. Especially as Windows has become so intrusive and click-heavy. It really boggles my mind that Windows has been around for nearly four decades, and it's not easier than it is. There are Linux distros that are easier and more logical.

Sorry for the rant. I do understand the financial side. It's far cheaper to get into Windows, and it's comfortable for most people. So yeah, it's $200 for Logic plus at least another grand for a Mac, more if you want a really good one. Not something everyone is willing to plop down.

[Funk Dracula]

I've seen this stuff about the price of Mac forever. And true, Apple are complete !@#$'s when it comes to charging for upgrades and completely lack upgradability now. But if you buy a Windows laptop or AIO with a similarly high PPI display, you're going to pay nearly as much.

The only reason I went for 32GB (M1 Mac Studio when they dropped in price) was because I occasionally load an entire orchestra into multiple instances of Kontakt to play back orchestral scores. I had a 16GB iMac at home for testing and it was more than adequate for just about anything short of that. And it wasn't actually trash doing that either.

I occasionally write for Macworld so I usually get to play with the latest stuff. Yes, the M2 and M3 benchmark faster, but sit down in front of one next to an older M1 and you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference. In other words, buying used (check the SSD usage first) or last generation can save you quite a bit. Most of the "refurbs" Apple sells as used are simply returns from users who quickly decided they wanted something else, not defective units that needed to be repaired.

And as you get Thunderbolt/USB ports you can skimp on the internal storage and add external for far less.

I still use Windows a lot for work, but it's not by choice. After I got used to the Mac a few years back, it became rather painful to go back. Especially as Windows has become so intrusive and click-heavy. It really boggles my mind that Windows has been around for nearly four decades, and it's not easier than it is. There are Linux distros that are easier and more logical.

Sorry for the rant. I do understand the financial side. It's far cheaper to get into Windows, and it's comfortable for most people. So yeah, it's $200 for Logic plus at least another grand for a Mac, more if you want a really good one. Not something everyone is willing to plop down.

The other advantage of the Mac platform is the "hardware/software bubble" it exists in. There tends to be less buggy things and random issues to troubleshoot because programs are coded for a limited scope of hardware, compared to the open-ended hardware platform of Windows/Linux.

I have recently experimented and officially switched from Logic on Mac to Bitwig on both PC and Mac. The PC came about as something I built for gaming, and I experimented with trying a new DAW (Bitwig) on that PC machine, and now I'm basically sticking to it for the time being because it's nice to just boot up a video game and veg out if my brain needs a break while working on a track haha. The PC of course has had random issues, just as I expected. A GPU update making things wonky, a wifi driver inexplicably going corrupt, etc. An entire career path/industry exists just to troubleshoot Windows machines and the many things that can go wrong with them after all. That is the consequence of an open-ended hardware platform. It's cheaper because of competition and options, but that's also a recipe for some instability and troubleshooting duties for your end user experience.

[Trensharo]

its the only daw that when im working with the laptop in my lap that i dont want to punch the screen for minimal space. ableton for example the browser on the left and then you have plugins on the bottom arrangement view becomes so small. I also have key commands to capture zooms sizes and screen sets for various tasks like mixing or editing

14-15" MacBooks scale to 1080p with "More SPace" on the screen. I have both a 14" M1 Pro MBP and a 14" Ryzen 9 Laptop. Logic Pro on the MBP isn't any different than Studio One or Cubase on the PC Notebook when it comes to space utilization in the UI.

They are all pretty bad once you open the Browser, Lower Zone (e.g. MIDI Editor or Docked Mixer) and Inspector. Never mind plug-in/virtual instrument windows, etc.

I think the DAW with teh best UI/UX for laptop use is Ableton Live.

Logic is even greater on newer Apple Silicon Macs. The optimisation is real with this one. It's a complete package with a decent sequencer timeline. Loved it for years but recently I switched to UAD LUNA.

Logic Pro is actually worse than REAPER and Cubase on Apple SIlicon because it isn't fully optimized for those SoCs. It doesn't use eCores at all, so with Logic you can actually run into that situation where going from an M1/M2 Pro to an M3/M3 Pro ends up being a performance downgrade due to a lesser number of pCores - depending on what Spec you configure for and the size of your projects (nothing that doesn't push an M1 will bottleneck on an M1 Pro or M2/M3 anything).

This take is simply an "assumption" based off the fact that Apple develops both the hardware and software. The reality does not [currently] line up with this assumption. Cubase and REAPER will scale better than Logic Pro on Apple Silicon - currently.

There is a difference between Apple Silicon Native and Apple Silicon Optimized, as well as being optimized for Hybrid CPUs (Apple Silicon and Intel).

-----

Logic is great because it is basicalkly Studio One Professional Plus with half the price point and no running upgrade costs (so far). It also has good Stock Plug-ins (though I think Live Suite and Cubase are better there) and really good stock virtual instruments (Live Suite is better there).

One thing I do not like about Logic is that a lot of its stock stuff are not HiDPI, so you have to force scale the UIs and they get blurrier the larger you scale them up. Some of the Synths. FX are borderline unusable on my 4K display because the UI is either too small or so blurry that it induces eye strain.

If you just use it on a 14/15" MacBook display, then you'll never notice this because those displays are scaled to 1080p. ON a 27" UHD display, there doesn't seem to be any middle ground.

But that's common. Native Instruments, Steinberg, etc. have similar issues with some of their virtual instrument UIs.

I don't find Logic Pro all that comfortable on the MBP display. It is quite cramped. Cubase and Studio One aren't any different. Cramped. Once you work on a HiDPI display, I think you'd probably need a 16" MBP to feel comfortable working on the native display on those machines.

On a laptop, you definitely have to set the dock to hide, as well, as it can otherwise eat a lot of screen real estate (unless you use tiny icons there).

[Trensharo]

I've seen this stuff about the price of Mac forever. And true, Apple are complete !@#$'s when it comes to charging for upgrades and completely lack upgradability now. But if you buy a Windows laptop or AIO with a similarly high PPI display, you're going to pay nearly as much.

I disagree. I can buy a 14" laptop with a good i7 or Ryzen 9 CPU an RTX4070 and a 144-165Hz QHD display and spec the RAM and Storage down to bare minimum. It will be multiple hundreds cheaper than any comparable MacBook Pro at comparable screen size - since you're basically starting at M# Pro - no base M3 MacBook will compete with that. Then I can spend < $200 upgrading it to 32GB RAM and 2TB PCIe 4 storage.

PC Laptop manufacturers generally allow you to upgrade CPU withut forcing you to upgrade RAM and SSD at the factory - both of which they sell for far cheaper prices than Apple. The only component I care about are the CPU and GPU - and to a lesser extent the display ("anything that isn't awful" - especially for music production).

If people can use the IPS Retina LCD displays on MacBook Airs and 13" MBP, then they can easily find something better in the PC market at comparable or lower prices.

This has always been the case, since the M1 hit the streets.

My PC Laptop is slightly worse than an M1 in single core and slightly better in multi-core (bought in the same month of the same year), and it was almost $800 less than the 13" M1 MBP with 16GB RAM/1TB SSD upgrades ($2,038 and change after taxes) that I initially bought in 2020 (but returned because of value regret).

I got the PC Laptop for $1,218 after taxes, and just put in the upgrades myself. < 250 to upgrade the RAM and SSD. Just upgrading the RAM in the MBP was $200, and the SSD upgrade was $400. I think the reason why Apple only stocks mostly base models, now, is due to people returning them due to "value regret." It always looks like an amazing value BEFORE you spend them dollars.

I did end up getting an M1 Pro MBP, but only after they went on sale. That was "more worth it," because the discount was HUGE. It was way cheaper than the M1 13" Pro I previously tried.

PPI On a 13-14" Laptop does not matter. No one uses a laptop close enough to their face to notice any difference in PPI. The thing about the MBP screens that does matter is if you have a High Refresh Rate MiniLED/HDR display on it and the PC Laptop only has IPS - but that requires a MacBook Pro 14"+ and maybe a 15" MacBook Air (which is a bad value for performance-oriented use cases).

Any decent Windows Laptop in the $1K range is going to have a high refresh rate, good IPS display on it with good color accuracy, these days, so the IPS Retina Screens on the cheaper MacBooks are at a competitive advantage there. They are very slow, and it's very noticeable if you are accustomed to faster screens. Hell, once you look at a fast display you basically cannot unsee the difference (which is why every display in my house is high refresh rate - I get a migraine within 10 minutes of looking at those old Apple displays).

In the $2500+ range, Windows Laptops are shipping with high refresh rate, HiDPI, OLED displays, these days. There really is no disparity there. The OLED is even superior to mini led. No haloing, etc.

And that's ignoring the GPU, because lower end Macs are not going to compete with PC Laptops for delivering GPU power for workloads that depends on that (DaVinci Resolve Studio, for example). All the marketing material is based on Hardware Decoded CODECs and are not based on real-world workflows. My M1 Pro MBP works well for that stuff, but once I start using Resolve FX with things like Noise Reduction or Speed Warp, the PC Laptop sprints away from it.

I would have needed to invest another $500+ to get the MacBook to perform as well as the PC in Resolve Studio for GPU-bound processes.

Honestly, no one should be buying iMacs in 2024. Either get a Mac Mini and bring your own display, or get a PC Tower and use the money you save to buy a decent IPS UHD Display (LG, Samsung or Dell).

A Mac Mini and a decent UHD IPS display is cheaper than an iMac these days. iMacs don't make any sense, IMVHO.

[Trensharo]

The other advantage of the Mac platform is the "hardware/software bubble" it exists in. There tends to be less buggy things and random issues to troubleshoot because programs are coded for a limited scope of hardware, compared to the open-ended hardware platform of Windows/Linux.

Like when Apple released Ventura 13.3.1 and broke AU Validation for Final Cut Pro for multiple weeks and never issued a fix until Sonoma was released? Unless you moved all of your AUs to a different directory, the validator would just freeze and you couldn't use FCPX.

Too bad if you actually used any in your project and needed to load it, BTW.

Or when they basically broke their own Networking Stack with Yosemite and they didn't fix it for months - eventually having to basically revert all the networking updates they did to eliminate it.

There are hardly any issues - never mind MAJOR issues - with compatibility on Windows upgrades. People are still throwing around FUD about Windows Updates, etc. like they have since Windows 10's release, because there really isn't much else to shade it for. It's pretty standard to never update macOS on a production machine at release. Always wait a few months, and developers are often several months behind the updates when it comes to validating the software for the current version.

In addition to that, gaining full compatibility can often require paid software upgrades.

Lots of app developers who knew Apple would kill 32-Bit support left their apps as 32-Bit until the next macOS released, at which time they launched Day 1 paid upgrades to a "new version" to get a 64-Bit build (Things, Scrivener... innumerable examples of this exist). The same thing happened with Apple Silicon Native builds (Cubase, Pro Tools, Reason ... and how many plug-ins?).

And while you have less hardware driver issues for Apple's hardware, macOS is a compatibility black hole and Apple often breaks things with OS upgrades - and even minor updates. This really doesn't happen on Windows. I have a Nostromo N52 from 2006 and the driver still installs and runs without fault on Windows 11. I have CD-ROMs for software from the Windows 98 era that install and run with ZERO issue on Windows 11 - this is why even Microsoft started blocking installation (or activation) for software like Office 2003. They couldn't sell upgrades because people would just sit on the old version for a decade or more. I have hardware and software from 5 years ago that is 100% incompatible with Macs due to the drivers falling out of date and compatibility-breaking OS updates (ignoring M1, they won't even work on Intel Macs).

Windows is fine if you don't muck up your system (can happen on any OS) and simply update your drivers form the places they're supposed to be updated from (on a laptop, that is the OEM - not Intel/AMD/Realtek/etc. unless directed otherwise). I haven't really dealt with issues like this on any platforms.

I used Linux when I was in college, but never ran into any issues because I used a RHEL-WS subscription, so I was guaranteed best hardware compatibility where exists, and I specced my machine with hardware that was supported by the platform (e.g. AMD GPU instead of Nvidia - this was 2004).

I didn't have any issues with hardware until I upgraded from RHEL-WS 4 to 5 and my GPU fell out of date. At that point, I went back to Windows because the driver "just worked." That's a big reason why I've always stayed "predominantly Windows" - though I do prefer to have at least one machine running a different platform for variety... otherwise it gets a bit boring.

If I'm being honest, my MBP is basically an iPad Pro. I find there just isn't enough "choice" available in a ton of different software niches, so it's hard to really use it as a primary professional platform for me - though my will needs differ from most others

I do hate that there is nothing like Windows Installer and Add/Remove Programs on macOS. Dragging apps to Trash absolutely is not an "uninstall" with how much application data some apps install/download to your machine.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

I do hate that there is nothing like Windows Installer and Add/Remove Programs on macOS. Dragging apps to Trash absolutely is not an "uninstall" with how much application data some apps install/download to your machine.

I've used this for years:

https://appzapper.com

[apoclypse]

I do hate that there is nothing like Windows Installer and Add/Remove Programs on macOS. Dragging apps to Trash absolutely is not an "uninstall" with how much application data some apps install/download to your machine.

I've used this for years:

https://appzapper.com

I use AppCleaner which does the same thing but free.
https://freemacsoft.net/appcleaner/

[Trensharo]

I have had AppCleaner on my Macs since 2013 and it's not quite what I'm looking for, though I do use it. However, there is often no point since I'll have to go to the same places to remove all the other junk, anyways. I have a pretty good idea of where this stuff is located. It would just be nice if I could run an uninstaller and it would do it all automatically - since the developers know where their applications create/place files.

[pdxindy]

It would just be nice if I could run an uninstaller and it would do it all automatically - since the developers know where their applications create/place files.

Yup... NI doesn't uninstall on the Mac either...

[apoclypse]

I have had AppCleaner on my Macs since 2013 and it's not quite what I'm looking for, though I do use it. However, there is often no point since I'll have to go to the same places to remove all the other junk, anyways. I have a pretty good idea of where this stuff is located. It would just be nice if I could run an uninstaller and it would do it all automatically - since the developers know where their applications create/place files.

Windows uninstallers leave a lot of crud behind as well. Like registry entries, stuff in the AppData and ProgramData folders. Pretty much the same stuff apps on macOS do. User stuff. Usually a developer includes an uninstaller if the app does anything like a System or Kernel Extension as those a bit more involved to uninstall, or sometimes if they have LaunchAgents. AppCleaner does a good enough job imo of finding and removing stuff that is no longer needed when deleting apps, it's obviously not going to find Sysex and Kexts but it does fin most everything else an app has associated with it based on my experience.

[magog]

The audio subsystem on Macs is really great, and I didn't really appreciate how great it is until after I switched.

The built in speakers and headphone jack work as a low-latency latency audio devices without additional drivers.

I bought a cheap Yamaha keyboard with speakers built in. When I hooked it up via USB, Mainstage asked if I wanted to use the keyboard as an audio device. Now I can play Mainstage instruments with the keyboard, with audio coming out through its external speakers, with low latency and no drivers. It's pretty great.

[jancivil]

I watch movies and such on mine, and it's all the time like last night, a phone rings in another part of the room in the movie and it sounds in another part of the room in here, six feet away. Phenomenal. It's far superior to listening on my 'phones in the sense of spatialization from a mix.

full-on amazing for "a dongle"

I don't use Logic for several reasons. I switched to the platform in early 2006, windows was more trouble then, and there's nothing happening to move me backwards. I pad 800 something for mine, refurbished M1.

I f**king hate Apple so don't even start.

[Trensharo]

I have had AppCleaner on my Macs since 2013 and it's not quite what I'm looking for, though I do use it. However, there is often no point since I'll have to go to the same places to remove all the other junk, anyways. I have a pretty good idea of where this stuff is located. It would just be nice if I could run an uninstaller and it would do it all automatically - since the developers know where their applications create/place files.

Windows uninstallers leave a lot of crud behind as well. Like registry entries, stuff in the AppData and ProgramData folders. Pretty much the same stuff apps on macOS do. User stuff. Usually a developer includes an uninstaller if the app does anything like a System or Kernel Extension as those a bit more involved to uninstall, or sometimes if they have LaunchAgents. AppCleaner does a good enough job imo of finding and removing stuff that is no longer needed when deleting apps, it's obviously not going to find Sysex and Kexts but it does fin most everything else an app has associated with it based on my experience.

Windows uninstallers can, sure. But I don't have to go to 3 different folders to delete a plug-in after I run the uninstaller. The uninstaller knows that it installs plug-in files in the VST2, VST3 and AAX directories and will remove them.

I didn't say the Windows uninstallers were flawless, becasue that has a lot to do with how much attention the developers actually pay to it when creating the uninstaller. When building an uninstaller, you have to tell it what files to look for and delete. Many developers create "lazy" uninstallers that leave stuff behind. However, many others do not.

The issue is that having an uninstaller - at ALL - on macOS is more of an exception than teh norm. That's the problem.

So, when I want to uninstall something like Scaler 2, I have to delete each plug-in manually and then go and delete the sound data.

On Windows, I run the Scaler 2 uninstaller and it deletes all of that without me ever having to look for it.

The end result is that maintaining the system actually takes more work because you have more **** to dig out of those folders on macOS than Windows.

The registry actually makes this easier because of how it is organized. It is pretty easy to go to HKLM and HKCU and just delete the "Native Instruments" folder under software.

But really, the registry is literally ignorable. You're still acting like we're still in the days of Windows 3.1. Most people will never install/uninstall enough software to even dream of encountering any registry-related performance issues. That is simply not a thing, anymore, and the registry isn't a sprawling web of plist files cluttering the file system, which actually can affect things like search performance when in those directory.

Lastly, a lot of the issues you have with AppData and ProgramData are macOS-related, as many developers will and do implement things on Windows to conform to macOS when the application is cross platform - this includes how and where they store application data as well as things like key commands.

So, if this gets improved on macOS, then perhaps Windows users will benefit by proxy.

Application do leave settings and registration/activation data behind... on both platforms... and that is done for obvious (and understandable reasons). I am not talking about that.

I am talking about uninstalling a DAW and having it leave behind multiple gigabytes of application data on the system drive

I am pretty on top of system maintenance, so I tend to get all of this when I uninstall any application. On Windows, I often leave the Activation/Settings data on the machine (in case I re-install), but on macOS I clean uninstall everything because I don't have the time to cherry pick what is what when removing software. I just go and delete it all. Having an actual uninstaller that removes all applications, bulk data and plug-ins while leaving the settings/activation data on the machine would be a godsend.

Not having a standard uninstallation framework is such a sh*tt* situation on an operating platform. I'm not even sure why you're trying to defend this.

"Yours isn't flawless, so my lack of one it... just fine?"

You don't think Windows users know CCleaner and compatible tools exist for free on that platform. 1992's complaint about the Windows Registry?

[Trensharo]

The audio subsystem on Macs is really great, and I didn't really appreciate how great it is until after I switched.

The built in speakers and headphone jack work as a low-latency latency audio devices without additional drivers.

This also applies to Windows. The two are almost identical when the machine is used in this way.

Studio One, REAPER, Cakewalk (SONAR), Maschine 2, MPC 2, Pro Tools, Digital Performer, etc. all "just work" on Windows with built-in audio devices using WASAPI/Windows Low Latency Audio.

The issue on Windows is not the platform, but the lack of support for up-to-date APIs in popular production software applications - much of which has gone all-in on ASIO and leave only Legacy Audio APIs from the days of Windows 3.1 as the only native option.

Cubase, Live, FL Studio, etc. do not support the native WASAPI or Windows Low Latency Audio, so your only choice is to wrap it to look like ASIO (Generic ASIO Driver - many of which have been problematic for many people, on top of being extremely high latency or locking buffers at 512, etc.).

The reason why I got Studio One was precisely to use the built-in audio device on my Laptop without having to carry around a massive Audio Interface Dongle when traveling or use ASIO4ALL, which I've never had a good experience with.

I don't expect companies like Steinberg to ever change this on Windows for software like Cubase and WaveLab. They compete directly with the platforms. On macOS, Steinberg implements CoreAudio Support via a CoreAudio2ASIO Wrapper. It's not "actual" CoreAudio Support. It's the equivalent of a Generic Windows ASIO driver. The entire audio engines of some software is also tuned for ASIO, and I don't see them going back in there to make the changes necessary to optimized for the native subsystem. They simply leave the really old DirectX/MME system in there as a "stop gap" (where that exists, since it already exists) and ignore it.

I think the only thing that would force some of these DAWs to update that would be Microsoft ripping out some of those Legacy APIs.

If the Yamaha keyboard is a class compliant USB Audio Device, you could do the same on Windows, except with applications that only support ASIO (or DX/MME - which is so high latency that you wouldn't use it, anyways).

At this point, the users need to stop b*tch*ng about Windows audio and b*tch to developers for still saddling them with stone-age audio API support in these [often] very expensive applications.

Would like to see what those stereo audio interface sales would be like if Windows DAWs were on top of this as much as their macOS competitors, though.