DUNE 3 is now available!!

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Touch The Universe wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 7:24 pm All rubbish, use drum loops, other peoples midi files other peoples presets, other peoples vocals and lyrics and still have a fulfilling life in music production that can touch and reach people, which is the most important thing.
Not rubbish at all if the subject is artistic satisfaction. Do you get more satisfaction from just banging out a piece of music using other peoples ideas simply for the sake of it or from creating a piece of music from your heart, from your soul?

If one prefers the former over the latter then that explains why music is so formulated and generic these days.

Certainly experimentation is the heart of all creativity but there is a difference between intelligent experimentation (what does turning this knob do to the resulting sound since the subject at hand is synthesisers) and in just pushing a button and hoping something good results. You learn from the former and not the latter. Learning is the mother of all growth.

You could just ask Artificial Intelligence to make a piece of music for you but again what artistic satisfaction would that bring you? It would bring me none.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Dencheg wrote: Thu May 23, 2024 12:22 am
Teksonik wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:39 am The whole concept of parameter lock is what I call "poke and hope" sound design. You load one patch, lock the filter for example, load another patch and you just hope something useful will result. Same with locking the Arp Patterns. You load a patch that is designed around that pattern, lock it, then load another patch just counting on luck to produce something that sounds good.

I think time would be better spent learning how to actually program the synth so you don't have to rely on luck.

But you could always make a feature request at the Synapse forum for Arp Lock to also lock the pattern as well.
I mostly stick to the same opinion about parameter randomization.
Not much of use for me from a painting splashed by a porcupine's tail. I'd rather have a detailed paining of menacing sea, rocks and storm. No way a porcupine can do that. AI is close, but multiple prompts can only approximate what a person can do.
Having said that, I think that pattern is a kind of a score, which can be used with different timbers, and is semantically detached from other synth params. Thus I support pattern locking.
Yet there is a difference in doing "paint by numbers" and creating something original. If ones chooses synths as a medium for their art form then saying they don't have a desire to learn to program them is like a painter saying they don't want to learn about brushes, canvas, and paint.

Anything that parameter lock could bring you could be done by yourself if you take the time to learn the synth. In this case DUNE 3 is such an easy synth to program that parameter lock is like putting training wheels on a tricycle.

If one posts on an internet forum "I don't have time to learn" all the while taking time to post on an internet forum their argument immediately falls apart.

At any rate parameter lock already exists but to me it's the classic case of give a man a little fish instead of teaching a man to fish for bigger catches.

Use it if you wish but you're doing yourself no favors in the long run. That's my point. So having made my point I'll end this discussion. I'm going into the studio now with every intention of putting in the effort to learn something new and get better at my craft. :tu:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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Teksonik wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:48 am .... I'm going into the studio now with every intention of putting in the effort to learn something new and get better at my craft. :tu:
Maybe you can learn to embrace non-deterministic creativity... Seems to be a good addition to your palet lol...

Anyway I am just teasing you, not trying to restart the discussion...

We can't understand eachother because you think that it is "learning your craft" OR "using un-deterministic ways". In fact it is a AND.
By the way, using un-deterministic way requires as much if not more knowledge than "learning your craft".

Edit: Just to make it clearer, this is exactly the type of things I am talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWko16v9UGo&t=1654s

You can start to hear the result by 29min.
To me this is knowledgfully and masterfully embracing randomness.

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I don't see what's so bad about using parameter lock. Maybe you are having a creative block and don't have a complete vision.

Say you want a pluck sound, you can lock your envelopes and then roll the dice on the oscillators or the effects and maybe get a result you wouldn't have thought of on your own. After getting a result you like, maybe you remember those settings and you're able to use that as a building block in making your own sound another time.

Or maybe someone just wants to randomize the whole thing and beat their head against the wall until they get a sound they like. More power to them if that's how they want to work. I typically don't use full randomization because I think it usually sounds terrible, but it doesn't bother me if the option is there for others who want it.

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cake builder wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 6:54 am I don't see what's so bad about using parameter lock. Maybe you are having a creative block and don't have a complete vision.

Say you want a pluck sound, you can lock your envelopes and then roll the dice on the oscillators or the effects and maybe get a result you wouldn't have thought of on your own. After getting a result you like, maybe you remember those settings and you're able to use that as a building block in making your own sound another time.

Or maybe someone just wants to randomize the whole thing and beat their head against the wall until they get a sound they like. More power to them if that's how they want to work. I typically don't use full randomization because I think it usually sounds terrible, but it doesn't bother me if the option is there for others who want it.
I think you are stating the obvious :-), fully agree with you.

Actually the genius "Objekt", best physical synth on earth (and let's face it, certainly the universe") uses this "randomise" feature very very nicely. As physical synthesis is very complex, in particular to find and model the right partials, Objekt makes the "controlled" randomisation a full tool of synthesis...

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Teksonik wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:35 am
Not rubbish at all if the subject is artistic satisfaction. Do you get more satisfaction from just banging out a piece of music using other peoples ideas simply for the sake of it or from creating a piece of music from your heart, from your soul?

Everything you use was someone else's idea...

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Teksonik wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:35 am Not rubbish at all if the subject is artistic satisfaction. Do you get more satisfaction from just banging out a piece of music using other peoples ideas simply for the sake of it or from creating a piece of music from your heart, from your soul?
Just curious... if you work with something like Omnisphere, according to your thinking, you should never use any Samples included with it because you can't initialize a Sample.... :?
MuLab of course :D

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Teksonik wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:21 am
Jac459 wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 7:02 pm Well, I wasn't trying to pick a fight, just having a discussion
I didn't know we were "fighting". If you care so little about "keyboard warriors" then perhaps don't be one by interjecting yourself into a conversation that had nothing to do with you. :wink:
But you understand that the principle of a forum is that people will enter the discussion right? I mean you heard about telegram or WhatsApp? It may be more convenient if you want to keep your discussion private....

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liquidsound wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 8:29 am
Teksonik wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:35 am Not rubbish at all if the subject is artistic satisfaction. Do you get more satisfaction from just banging out a piece of music using other peoples ideas simply for the sake of it or from creating a piece of music from your heart, from your soul?
Just curious... if you work with something like Omnisphere, according to your thinking, you should never use any Samples included with it because you can't initialize a Sample.... :?
That would be only if your want to be a true artist.
Simple mortals can still use.

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Lol.
I wonder how well Greg Phillinganes, Herbie Hancock, David Paich, Stevie Wonder, even David Foster can program their own synths.
All of them afaik hired synth programmers.
Cause well partially because not everyone who can turn a knob is a sound designer. It is an artform like so many other aspects of our industry.
rsp
sound sculptist

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Teksonik wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:48 am


If one posts on an internet forum "I don't have time to learn" all the while taking time to post on an internet forum their argument immediately falls apart.

not getting involved in the overall argument, but the above is not entirely correct.
many people, post on a forum, during a lunch hour or toilet break while in work. not everyone has access to their synths, just because they can post on a forum, they could be on the bus home from work even.

carry on.

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zvenx wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 10:33 am Lol.
I wonder how well Greg Phillinganes, Herbie Hancock, David Paich, Stevie Wonder, even David Foster can program their own synths.
i know herbie "can". whether he does all the time, is a different matter, but he could if he had the time and need.

not sure about the others, id imagine they can to some extent though. they werent always in a position for it to be possible.

and that isnt to say "everybody should!"
do what you gotta do, not my rodeo :shrug:
i enjoy the exploring for new sounds, but i dont have deadlines and clients to please, so i dont need my sounds done yesterday!
some people just want to buy a musical instrument to play via the keys, and use the mod and pitch wheel for expression. if theyre having fun and achieving what they wish, then its all good.

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Jac459 wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 10:03 am
liquidsound wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 8:29 am
Teksonik wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:35 am Not rubbish at all if the subject is artistic satisfaction. Do you get more satisfaction from just banging out a piece of music using other peoples ideas simply for the sake of it or from creating a piece of music from your heart, from your soul?
Just curious... if you work with something like Omnisphere, according to your thinking, you should never use any Samples included with it because you can't initialize a Sample.... :?
That would be only if your want to be a true artist.
Simple mortals can still use.
Then a true artist should make music starting from Assembly Code :hihi:
MuLab of course :D

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Teksonik wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 5:35 am
Touch The Universe wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 7:24 pm All rubbish, use drum loops, other peoples midi files other peoples presets, other peoples vocals and lyrics and still have a fulfilling life in music production that can touch and reach people, which is the most important thing.
Not rubbish at all if the subject is artistic satisfaction. Do you get more satisfaction from just banging out a piece of music using other peoples ideas simply for the sake of it or from creating a piece of music from your heart, from your soul?

If one prefers the former over the latter then that explains why music is so formulated and generic these days.

Certainly experimentation is the heart of all creativity but there is a difference between intelligent experimentation (what does turning this knob do to the resulting sound since the subject at hand is synthesisers) and in just pushing a button and hoping something good results. You learn from the former and not the latter. Learning is the mother of all growth.

You could just ask Artificial Intelligence to make a piece of music for you but again what artistic satisfaction would that bring you? It would bring me none.
Agree, it's about satisfying creativity, which is unbounded by pure synthesis. There is a whole world of creativity in bridging separate already made components in a pleasing way. Selecting sounds in good taste is itself an art form and does not depend on synthesis. That said, I also agree there are extra layers of satisfaction in synthesis. Both are valid. Creating components from scratch, midi, patches, loops, etc is satisfying, of course, and is a good tool to learn and have, but does not always guarantee the best results, in the shortest amount of time. When things go fast, that is satisfying, especially when a flow builds up and things fall into place. It's satisfying making good music, period, no matter the method.

Even ai generation has elements of creativity. You have to know what sound you have in mind and intelligently and creatively prompt it to your desired results, which itself is an art form, on the cutting edge. Give me a nice track to listen to, know matter how it is produced, though, don't entirely remove my mind from the creative process, it has to be in the loop somewhere, lol, with ai, the more parameters to effect and prompt, the better, yet, this is the extreme case example.

I've never made a track with ai, and doubt its at the point of having enough room for "creatively" prompting it. My main point is it is unreasonable to look down on anyone for not sythesizing anything or everything from scratch and that it is impossible to exhaust creatively bringing together already made elements. Even if you never again made a drum loop or patch again you would never run out of the creativity that is possible with the often very refined options others have already layed down that often represent a lifetime of work and countless hours to produce. Honestly it's kind of intelligent to implement as much as it as you can, to get in the flow, to be more in the creative zone and less the tedious zone, if you know what I mean, and to get a better track at the end. There is no limit to creativity, nor can it ever be bound in pure synthesis.
Last edited by Touch The Universe on Fri May 24, 2024 6:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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