Some thoughts about AI acceptance

[ghettosynth]

Milli Vanilli is the perfect case study for this discussion.

The lesson here is that without the personalities selling the music, it was worthless.

I've been formulating a theory. I don't know if it's novel or correct, but I think there are people that I'm going to call "charismatics."

all good points and fair questions...lots of similar phenomena going on...the intersection of art and commerce/capitalism is fraught with peril

from the "why is modern music so awful thread" lol

"for discussion two examples from current pop landscape
Dua Lipa...she was introduced to a Warner Music A&R by a trusted "tastemaker" in his personal circle..."she had nothing" yet in endeavors of music...he said he was willing to sign her before hearing any music at all because of her unique wardrobe, look, charisma, and "energy" when she first walked into the room he was in and commanded everyone's attention....so she debuts with ambassador deals signed for versace, yves st laurent, mulger, and puma

sabrina carpenter was another graduate from the disney kids' tv school, mentored by miley cyrus...her current hit "espresso" is apparently stitched from 4 spice loops, something AI could easily do now...it has deals with Alfred coffee, menotti's coffee, and blank street coffee supposedly before song was released...each deal is exclusive for a geographic region...sabrina posted on all socials for fans to post pics of themselves enjoying her signature coffees for all brands...same with her signature coffee ice cream flavor from Van Leeuwen ice cream

is this music as an artistic endeavor,...or an industrial factory designed for commodity marketing of consumer goods?"

Indeed, and that's a pretty good thread that identifies a lot of the trends that drive perception of music being more processed and homogenous today than, e.g., the 70s/80s. Not that there has ever been an absence of crap, per se.

I think that depending on perspective, it can be both at the same time, but, from the industries POV, it's a money machine.

The point that I was making above is that the personality doesn't need to belong to any "musician", the personality can sell the music sung by someone else, then it can sell the music "recorded" by AI. Live can be lip-synced all, or in part.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a gloom and doom POV, nor a utopian vision of a world of robotic slaves tending to our every needs. I do think that wherever AI can replace musicians in functional music, that will happen much sooner than many here want. Whether it happens in commercial pop music is less certain, but my criticism is with respect to some belief that the industry needs a musician's personality in order to sell records. I don't think that it will happen for a very long time, if ever, for what many consider more serious music. If you are a working concert bassoon player, you probably shouldn't feel too threatened.

But that's about making money. I would bet that's almost nobody here. Do we have numbers? Is it 5%, 10%, more, less? I would be massively surprised if more than 10% of KVR is earning enough money to pay for their gear and earn a living. Cynical me thinks that it's not even that high.

So, whatever that number is, and the remainder definitely includes everyone going on about not getting enough streaming revenue from Spotify and friends, AI will hijack some if not most of the attention that you the rest expect to receive from randos. This is just a numbers game. Having a stunning personality like the ones that post in these threads isn't going to help you in the same way that Dua Lipa's wardrobe (and backside) help her.

I'm going to stay on topic here, so I'll keep my thoughts on where LLMs are in terms of capability and usefulness out of this thread.

[zerocrossing]

Milli Vanilli is the perfect case study for this discussion.

The lesson here is that without the personalities selling the music, it was worthless.

I've been formulating a theory. I don't know if it's novel or correct, but I think there are people that I'm going to call "charismatics."

all good points and fair questions...lots of similar phenomena going on...the intersection of art and commerce/capitalism is fraught with peril

from the "why is modern music so awful thread" lol

"for discussion two examples from current pop landscape
Dua Lipa...she was introduced to a Warner Music A&R by a trusted "tastemaker" in his personal circle..."she had nothing" yet in endeavors of music...he said he was willing to sign her before hearing any music at all because of her unique wardrobe, look, charisma, and "energy" when she first walked into the room he was in and commanded everyone's attention....so she debuts with ambassador deals signed for versace, yves st laurent, mulger, and puma

sabrina carpenter was another graduate from the disney kids' tv school, mentored by miley cyrus...her current hit "espresso" is apparently stitched from 4 spice loops, something AI could easily do now...it has deals with Alfred coffee, menotti's coffee, and blank street coffee supposedly before song was released...each deal is exclusive for a geographic region...sabrina posted on all socials for fans to post pics of themselves enjoying her signature coffees for all brands...same with her signature coffee ice cream flavor from Van Leeuwen ice cream

is this music as an artistic endeavor,...or an industrial factory designed for commodity marketing of consumer goods?"

Sure, but this isn't a modern phenomena. I brought up Frank Sinatra (my 7th cousin, no shit) and I have a hard time listening to a lot of his stuff because he's so often flat. (me too, no shit! ) How did he reach the top of his game when even other lesser stars like Dean Martin had better voices. He's not that good looking of a guy. Elvis. OK, good singer and performer, but better than the guys who wrote the songs he made famous? I see it all the time in politics, as well. How many people said they picked Bush over Gore because he seemed like a guy they'd have a beer with? We picked the guy caught on a hot mic bragging about sexual assault over the policy wonk.

Not to mention the artists that get discovered after their death. Were they ahead of their time, or too annoying to deal with in life? I see my wife's company funneling in a ton of money to sales people, while her department that deals with service and software implementation gets the crumbs. The very charismatic CEO just thinks she and her staff should work harder, but sales people, well they just need more help.

Anyway, we could go all day. I see some great bands on TikTok that seemingly have very little followers and a middle aged woman lip syncing to a Primus tune gets millions. I don't pretend to understand any of it. I can't get more than 2-3 KVR members to even listen to a track I post in the cafe, and these are "my people." So... yeah. Aside from maybe never working again, generative AI isn't going to affect how I make music, though I welcome tools that will let me work with orchestral instruments in a way that's less annoying than articulation cues in Kontakt.

[bermudagold]

all of the AI panic we're seeing now is ridiculous and overblown.

But it really isn't "ridiculous and overblown", is it? When big record companies are pushing AI artists to the top of the charts right in front of our eyes and using millions of fake fans/followers to boost their visibility and pretending these "artists" are a lot more popular than they actually are, that doesn't give you even a moment's pause?

At this point I think that anyone who refuses to see the writing on the wall -that these companies are blatantly, intentionally pushing AI music and "musicians" over human bands and artists- are either willfully ignorant or completely blind to reality.

It's clear that humans are being pushed aside for LLM-created trash and unfortunately it will continue to occur more and more until every popular track is AI because these record labels can make a lot more money on non-existent AI musicians.

Soon enough every song that makes it onto the charts with be AI-created rubbish; that's where the most money can be made. If that isn't obvious to people at this point, it's simply because they're in denial and/or they aren't paying attention.

there definitely is an incentive for record companies to do this...hence the deal with Suno...AI is already good enough for 2.7 million monthly listeners on Spotify generating $2k a day...now you know why the labels want to own udio and suno...they can get paid twice...for the publishing they own that it's trained on, and by cranking out stables of AI artists derived from the publishing they own

paul mccartney and elton john want to stop them...they were among 400 creatives urging the UK government to force AI firms to reveal the copyrighted works used to train their models in a formal complaint...
'We will lose an immense growth opportunity if we give our work away at the behest of a handful of powerful overseas tech companies and with it our future income,' it rea

I was just saying this to someone a month ago...the only commerce left for musicians will be cover bands getting paid to play the top charting AI songs live lol

[Zeisner]

i tend to agree...many people love all the AI "lite" tools that existed prior...midi packs, loops, construction kits, chord generators, generative midi...

The wannabes and posers, yes. They are also the target audience for all those newer AI services.

the main rationale is usually "I just like to have them for writers block"...IME that is largely a cop out...

It's a common excuse for the lack of talent, skill, creative vision and having nothing to say.

people I know who really love music almost always have something personal to say musically and almost find it difficult NOT to express themselves and what they are currently going through musically...

I observed the same. They often have too many ideas and too much to say, making it hard to choose which path to follow.

just because "The experienced and skilled musician" don't need it, doesn't mean they wont accept it...AND use it

But only to a very limited degree and in very special cases. Example: Playing guitar through GuitarRig which features amp simulations based on machine learning. Which is also the proper way of using this technology.

[Zeisner]

Soon enough every song that makes it onto the charts with be AI-created rubbish; that's where the most money can be made.

Soon?

https://www.wired.com/story/ai-bots-streaming-music/

But AI is not to blame, the music business has been a fake economy/pyramid scheme since the eighties when labels started to buy their own releases to push them in the billboard charts, hoping to make it past the herd thinking threshold ("Everybody else is buying it, therefore it must be good and I have to buy it too"). AI only reduces the human component to the bare minimum.

[Chicken Drummy]

Soon enough every song that makes it onto the charts with be AI-created rubbish; that's where the most money can be made.

Soon?

https://www.wired.com/story/ai-bots-streaming-music/

But AI is not to blame, the music business has been a fake economy/pyramid scheme since the eighties when labels started to buy their own releases to push them in the billboard charts, hoping to make it past the herd thinking threshold ("Everybody else is buying it, therefore it must be good and I have to buy it too"). AI only reduces the human component to the bare minimum.

Not every song on the charts is AI created -yet- so yes, soon. And you're preaching to the choir, my friend. I have the very same disgust with the Billboard charts as you. But I am still disgusted with the AI takeover regardless of whether or not pop music was a complete shit-show before or after LLMs flooded the scene.

[Zeisner]

Not every song on the charts is AI created -yet-

If you include non-LLM AIs then we're very close to 100 %.

I have the very same disgust with the Billboard charts as you.

I don't have anything against the billboard charts, it's the fake economy which took over it (and other branches as well). Fake publishers, fake producers, fake listeners.

[harvon]

Now, will there be made legislation that AI music or AI art in general must be told to be AI created? At least when it is commercial?

[pdxindy]

You you are a working concert bassoon player, you probably shouldn't feel too threatened.

I agree... they should be safe in terms of the concert work. But they may lose the supplementary income they are getting for tv commercials and the like.

[Zeisner]

Now, will there be made legislation that AI music or AI art in general must be told to be AI created? At least when it is commercial?

Maybe a symbolic one in countries like Sweden. Which will only apply to small EU companies of course. So technically no, not really.

[Zeisner]

But they may lose the supplementary income they are getting for tv commercials and the like.

Those who didn't already lose ther supplementary income to sample libraries played with keyboards are considered safe.

[BONES]

Could it be that the effort a person has put to learn an instrument and other music related skills has negative correlation to his acceptance of AI?

I'd suggest it is more to do with how much (or how little) you value musicianship. I've never valued it at all. I've only every been as good a player as I've needed to be and any tools I can use to relieve me of the burden of having to play an instrument is something I am going to use. I believe there is an important performance aspect to playing something on stage - e.g. If there's a synth solo in a song, it feels necessary that somebody on stage plays it - but beyond that I'm happy to play sustained notes and chords, just so it looks like I'm doing something when I'm not singing.
The thing with that, though, is that I don't see how AI will be a better substitute for musicianship than a DAW or a hardware sequencer. It's only ego that makes a difference.

from the "Does AI make the plugin industry obsolete" thread....

"...the casuals who entered during the pandemic know they are behind the curve, so they are all for the AI tools as they believe it will allow them to catch up or cut the line...

the people who have been at it since the early days of computer music technology feel like they have been putting in the work slowly cutting the hill

But imagine how those people felt 30 years ago when this technology first became available. It's all just history repeating.[/quote]

[Chicken Drummy]

Not every song on the charts is AI created -yet-

If you include non-LLM AIs then we're very close to 100 %.

I have the very same disgust with the Billboard charts as you.

I don't have anything against the billboard charts, it's the fake economy which took over it (and other branches as well). Fake publishers, fake producers, fake listeners.

Honestly, it seems that we're mostly in agreement on this topic.

[bermudagold]

remember when output arcade came out and upended the whole industry?...the consternation?...the passionate debate?...seems like so long ago lol...the gamification of construction kits in output arcade seems positively benign and cuddly now compared to the latest AI tools

well here is the evolution by output in the face of the next gen of dsp videogaming leapfroggin them....output was always the fastest path to the futurepop sound of the radio, and the whole industry copied them...now they have further distilled it...like I said guitar hero on the playstation evolved for the next generation...Lego block, color by numbers, fisher price, tonka toy, my first pony music production

[agharta]

Soon enough every song that makes it onto the charts with be AI-created rubbish; that's where the most money can be made. If that isn't obvious to people at this point, it's simply because they're in denial and/or they aren't paying attention.

How much money is to be made by making the charts these days?
The big money is usually touring, merchandise, physical media, sponsorships, endorsements etc.

Back in the 60s and probably 70s, singles could sell millions of copies.
It might be cheap to make an AI tune these days, but to stand out you will need to promote it which usually takes money.
There will probably be Warholesque 'factories' pumping out AI tunes on scale to try and make money.
These could be kids in basements etc, but once the market is flooded, the chances of making money dwindles.