There seems to be a trend recently of people charging...

[ugo]

i wansnt going to say anything else, but seeing this thread return just emphasizes something thats been bothering me lately.

i've seen an increasing number of people saying that they either see no point in paying for a vst, or are actually acting pissed off about seeing someone charge (or charge more than they want to pay), like its some sort of personal insult aimed at them. this has not been limited to just SE synths (though it is a primary target), but hand coded stuff too.

the defence is always the same - there are so many great freeware synths out there that they see no reason to pay and therefore think that no one should charge.

i understand the point of view of the people who are simiply satisfied with the tools they've got. they are just being practical. (or frugal.) if a free or cheep synth provides the sounds they want, or if what comes with their host does all they need, then they see no reason to pay for more. fair enough. if they later desire other attribues and find they cant get them for free or cheep, they will pay if they feel its worth it to them to do so.

what i find much harder to understand is the attitude of people who demand that everything should be free and if its not, then it should be super cheep. (and even then they will bitch like hell about it not having been cheep enough.) they act as if the devs are greedy, but its actually they who are the greedy ones. they act like spoiled children who got too many gifts. now they think that everything should be given to them.

but who spoiled them?
sadly, it seems we freeware devs have. most freeware devs are like me. we've given our work away because we wanted to do something nice for the community and we wanted to share our work. but perhaps we've done our job too well.

i fear that there is a growing number of people who no longer see the value of what goes into making the music software they use...both freeware and commercial. they see no value in the great deal of time and effort people put into making their products. they also refuse to understand the realities of life and business for anyone other than themselves.

they instead live in a self centered universe where they think they are entitled to be given everything. of course this problem extends far beyond just the vst world. i see this all over the net. this sort of behavoir is also common among many warez users, people who download movies and cd's instead of buying them, etc. "why pay for something when i can have it for free? and how dare they charge me for something anyway! its all their fault!"

so perhaps what we are seeing here within our own community is just the manifestation of a growing attitude in the web world as a whole. however, its hard to look at their posts, and see their constant use of freeware's existance as the defence for their arguments, and not have to wonder if we've reached a point of there being too much of a good thing. sure, people at large may be loosing perspective and appreciation for things too, but we freeware devs may be exaserbating the problem in our community.

we wanted to help, but mabey we are inadvertantely harming. we wanted to give gifts, not help create a culture that demands offerings. we wanted to give people more things to have fun with, not damage the market (and the companies) that inspired us to get involved in the first place.

whats the solution? i dont know that there really is one. (at least not a good one.) but mabey we freeware devs should start charging something, or charging more often. perhaps putting a dollar sign on something is the only way to get people to remember the value in things...especially for intangibles such as software and services.

-ugo

[ObsoleteAcc99]

great post Ugo

[ianweb123]

Some good points UGO.. and imagine how it must feel for the commercial Devs who are trying to make a living out of this stuff..
The question is having created the something for nothing world can you then rein it back by starting to charge? Somehow, I doubt it

[topaz]

again great points UGO

I see it as if one wants to give stuff away it is up to them.

on the same hand if they want to charge it's up to them.

one thing I have a slight problem with is people telling me what I should or should not do, not only with the price of my projects but also how to make the damn things.

my reply is usually,

"go make it the way you want and for free if you wish, till then please get lost"

[Rellik]

Haven't been following this thread, but interesting post, ugo.

I'm not sure if your points are true or not, but they definitely do make you think. One thing, though: freeware will never die out.

Although developers are often known to charge money for the value of their software, software development is not an innately economical process. Charging money is not intrinsically linked to creating content, whether it be art, music, or software. When a freeware dev spends countless hours hard at work on a synth to give away to the masses, there's nothing strange going on - that's how software development is, in its natural state. Money is just something that has come into the equation.

So the "spoiled" comment seems not quite accurate. Being spoiled is getting too much of something that you shouldn't really necessarily have. But you can't be spoiled by freeware, since freeware is for everyone in the first place, and EVERYONE periodically gives something for everyone to have, whether it be music, software, love, conversation, information, what have you

While I don't think it makes sense at all to get pissed off over someone charging for something that you think isn't worth it, I do see why some might think it's kind of silly - "why do you expect to be paid for this when I and he and she and whoever over there do not charge for software of the same caliber?". Not in the sense of indignation, and not really something you'd say out loud, but you're certainly not crazy if you think along those lines.

[ugo]

"why do you expect to be paid for this when I and he and she and whoever over there do not charge for software of the same caliber?". Not in the sense of indignation, and not really something you'd say out loud, but you're certainly not crazy if you think along those lines.

so if one person decides to give the fruits of their labor away, they have just erased the value of everyone else's work?

Being spoiled is getting too much of something that you shouldn't really necessarily have. But you can't be spoiled by freeware, since freeware is for everyone in the first place,

and who is to say that you, and everyone else, "should" have been given the freeware in the first place?

if the amount of freeware has exceeded the point where it's no longer bennificial and has instead become detrimental, then mabey it has become something that the community "shouldn't really necessarialy have."

-ugo

[Alex@ProgressAudio]

so if one person decides to give the fruits of their labor away, they have just erased the value of everyone else's work?

-ugo

Ugo, I think you made some good points. There's also an interesting thread in the Effects forum that's relevant with what you're saying: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... c&start=45

I feel that the amount of freeware that's available has lowered customer's perceived value of software, to a point where software is undervalued and prices don't reflect the amount of time invested in development.

Of course, its not really customers who are to blame, since this situation has been created by developers being too open handed sometimes.

Now some people use the argument that software doesn't really involve any costs to produce (i.e. like hardware where you have materials and manufacture etc.). But it does require a great deal of knowledge, and a huge investment in time. Now a lawyer, or waiter, or doctor or whatever does an hour's work, no one would disagree that they are right to get paid. So I don't see why software development should be any different.

Therefore, I feel totally comfortable charging for my products that I have spent hundreds of hours developing, which are good quality, with good documentation and support. Some people dismiss them straight away because they expect something free, but I won't feel bad about getting paid for my good work.

Alex

[Z3R0T0N1N]

Tatapoum 3 is made with synth edit.
'nuff said.
i would pay for that in a heartbeat.
There are plenty of synths that are not made with synth edit that are ugly / useless / buggy / have little or no presets...
but of course the people who start these threads never seem to remember that.

i would say " there's a trend " of people making inaccurate generalizations based purely on personal preference and / or preconceptions, as opposed to fact / experience.


The EFM bundle (www.ele4music.com) is another good example of payware that was very much worth it, and was made with synth edit.

as far as looks being important, i think that perhaps 'relevant' would be a better word in my opinion. Yeah, it's nice, and sometimes even inspiring to have a sweet looking interface; but on the other hand, one of my favourite plugins is Scuzzphut 6. It is brilliant sounding and looks like cold vomit. I use it very often, and it has never failed to inspire me with its sound and useability.

on the other hand, when northern beat released the Triangle 2 skin, i started using the synth more...

[Klemperer]

I'll get flamed of course, but I really don't give a sh1t......there are exceptionally few Synthedit synths I'd pay any money for (ugly or not). Although e-phonic made some nice Synthedit stuff admittedly.

That was from page one. See, over the next pages nobody flamed you. But I don't like the poshy attitude "ooh I dare to say....but surely I'll get flamed for, but I really don't give a shit".

I payed for Krakli's YAVA1 the day it came out (a ridiculous low sum, to get Yava2 and other very nice creations for free) and am glad I did. Ugo is right in many sentences I think too. I wouldn't "flame you". I just don't like your arrogance in those sentences. It has a bit to do with what ugo says, people act like those who are bored to death because they got too much, like überzärtelte Besserwisser.

Cheers, ugo.

[ianweb123]

Tatapoum 3 is made with synth edit.

I've only just noticed this ..

This is a truly outstanding piece of SE work, but more than that is an outstanding piece of work, full stop.

[ugo]

I feel that the amount of freeware that's available has lowered customer's perceived value of software, to a point where software is undervalued and prices don't reflect the amount of time invested in development.

unfortunately, i do wonder if you may be correct. and with each decrease in price, you've got to move an even higher number of units just to feel like you are breaking even, let alone feel like you are making a profit on your time.

this leads me to another question...if freeware is doing damage, at what point does cheep software also do damage? its highly likely that you'll always find someone selling something a bit cheeper than the next guy. so at what point does "competitive pricing" essentially cause as much (or nearly as much) harm?

Now some people use the argument that software doesn't really involve any costs to produce (i.e. like hardware where you have materials and manufacture etc.). But it does require a great deal of knowledge, and a huge investment in time. Now a lawyer, or waiter, or doctor or whatever does an hour's work, no one would disagree that they are right to get paid. So I don't see why software development should be any different.

i agree with you 100%.
its a rediculous argument.

i've always worked in "services" fields. (artist, guitar tech, etc.) never have i had a customer say "since you didnt require any materials or have any additional expenses, i dont think i should have to pay you for your time, even though you did excellent work."

-ugo

[jens]

good post, Ugo and I would like to agree but actually I think I have to disagree...

If you look at any market you can weigh it's value from two sides:

one side would be the one you've been looking at (or at least it seems you came from that direction) - what can it give to those who provide the goods?

the other side would be to ask: what does it give to those who use the goods?

now you surely will say you can't seperate both sides from each other but we'll have to see if we maybe can after all.

I am sure by now you don't see what I am getting at but please bear with me...


Let's take a look at Synth-Edit (and now Synthmaker as well):

it makes it far easier for people like you and Ian to develop great plugins. You share them for free. That is great and if we make good use of them that's even greater. Let's say the free plugins get better and better until suddenly we have reached a point were no commercial software developer will sell anything anymore - what does that mean? Suddenly someone has to look for a new job - there might be a personal tragedy involved and if so that is sad. But what does this mean for the muscicians, for those who make use of the goods?
It has become better for them. Their world has become richer. What does this mean to the market? It has become better!

If there would really ever be the point reached where we would not need commercial software anymore I would regard this as a good thing. I buy software because I have a need for it and not to secure the job of someone else. This may sound harsh and I agree that it is egoistical but so is the developer who tries to charge for something people can get for free just to keep his current job. A bit of egoism is neccessarily part of all social life.

If the pub has to close because there aren't enough guests anymore the barkeeper has to look for a new job. It just doesn't make sense that people drink their beer in the pub instead of drinking the cheaper one they can get from the supermarket at home only to secure the job of the barkeeper if they wouldn't feel a need to go there otherwise.

[ianweb123]

What does this mean to the market? It has become better!

I'm not so sure about that..

Like it or not SE (and SM as well, at least until it matures) is a construction kit, perhaps like meccano. You can take what it offers along with the 3rd party module developers and piece it together, clothe it in a terrific skin, and create genuine useful or enjoyable plugs..

but..

The commercial developers are working from the other direction. They start out out with an idea and work back from that to the components and connections required.. The important thing though is still the idea.. If there is no financial reward or living to be made from these ideas then eventually the companies will not be prepared to invest the time and effort required..

Sure SE plugs can be very very good, but a company like NI developed Reaktor forchristsake.. There has to be a payback for a product of that size and scope..
Do you genuinely believe that Gforce would have developed Minimonsta or impOSCar and then given it away..

You are right that users are blessed with freebies, it is indeed possible to create an entire studio without spending a penny. Users today can download something that in the days before software would have cost hundreds or thousands of pounds.. But, whatever we do we must not stifle the ideas.. If the ideas are realised in something like SE then, great.. but please don't create a market where the commercial developers have no incentive for their ideas too.

I agree with UGO that the saturation of the market has created a greed or feeding frenzy amongst users. I wouldn't mind betting that over half the posts in the instruments forum at KvR is related to freebies..

Like most SE devs I do what I do for my own selfish purposes, I create what I want to create when I want to create it. Just recently I have started to do more collaborations and there are more in the pipeline..

Most the times my reward is the oxygen of attention. I got a genuine buzz from having a plug-in featured in print .. of course, this (if I look at it cynically) is a form of ego.

But I have a day job.. For me, plug-in development is a hobby.. To some it is a living and I genuinely believe that we must be respectful of their wishes to earn a living from it.. The only thing that they have to do, of couse, is to make sure that the product they produce is something that musos will want to buy..!

[blaster78]

Like it or not SE (and SM as well, at least until it matures) is a construction kit, perhaps like meccano. You can take what it offers along with the 3rd party module developers and piece it together, clothe it in a terrific skin, and create genuine useful or enjoyable plugs..

and yet it still requires large amount of time, effort and knowledge.

you freebie guys rock.... you're never gonna replace absynth or kontakt etc but i have enourmous amounts of fun with your synths (particularly ian and ugo) and my life would certainly be a shitter place without you.

f**k all the c**ts who think tat its "easy" in synthedit, or that it "sounds the same". they might be right but for evey one of them there are a hundred of me.

i'll buy synths when i want to, but your goodwill has no impact on this, it just makes my life easier. i own a nord g2x, but i still use string theory or effem (im pretty much any tune)

bollocks to the lot of them

i love you

steve.

[jens]

The only thing that they have to do, of couse, is to make sure that the product they produce is something that musos will want to buy..!

I agree 100% with you about this - if they manage to do this (and personally I am confident about their ability) they (i.e. the most gifted ones) will always survive which is great.

If the pub offers you a reason to drink your beer there instead at home other than your mercy with the barkeeper who'd loose his job otherwise he will keep his job and everything is good for both sides!