Emulations of Roland gear (synths, drum machines and FXs)

[Ingonator]

As always I look for some JD800 emulation - weirdly enough since I'm not a big fan of ROMplers! But I have some fond memories of the JD.

In the track/demo at my last post i used a Kontakt library with samples of the D-50. I had owned a D-50 around 9 years ago and maybe at some point will decide to get one again. Anyway that Deepflight Kontakt library from Pink Noise Studio includes some really beautiful D-50 patches (including some famous ones) with great quality.

Concerning a JD-800 emulations i guess this is difficult due to several reasons where the most important one seems to copy the ROM samples/waveforms without running into trouble. After having a search with Google there seem to be a few sample sets available based on the JD-800. Not sure how good those are.

While Tube-Ohm Vintage is said to be a D-50 emulation and includes a similar structure it does not seem to include the original waveform, just some that are somehow inspired by them. Difficult to get a really convincing result from it IMO.


Ingo

[fluffy_little_something]

Roland and Oberheim filters are very different in design and sound, in general...

Interesting, I just stumbled upon a patch comparison between the almost perfect Oberheim emulation OP-X Pro II and a real Roland Jupiter 8, and there are other patches copying different synths. Seems the differences are not as big as one might think

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386900

[Ingonator]

Roland and Oberheim filters are very different in design and sound, in general...

Interesting, I just stumbled upon a patch comparison between the almost perfect Oberheim emulation OP-X Pro II and a real Roland Jupiter 8, and there are other patches copying different synths. Seems the differences are not as big as one might think

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386900

It took a long time to match those sounds and for some it did not really work after all AFAIK. Anyway Peter is a genius in reproramming sounds of other synths but it for sure not simple to do it that way.
OP-X Pro II also contains several additional features compared to a real OB-X.
AFAIk there are problems reproducing the Crossmodulation of the Jupiter 8 with other synths. Same about the Sync, PWM and the negative envelope switch. Not to forget the additional HPF in the Jupiter.

Besides this the Matrix 12/Xpander filters (in Mach Five 3 and UVU Workstation) are again different to a OB-X filter.

The biggest difference in the filters should with high resonance sounds and there seem to be on few with the Jupiter 8 patches.

I had tried to match them in Arturia Jupiter 8V myself before anyone else started reprogramming them, in fact Peter from Sonicprojects posted in the thread where i had posted at that time. I never found the time to really finish those. Hopefully i could do it ASAP. Reprogramming the original patch sheets is done for all of them. In OP-X Pro II and other synths the parameters are totally different which is one reason why it is difficult to reprogram them there.

I had used Jupiter 8V in 2 demos/tracks i published at page 11 (the page before this).


Conclusion:
The only emulations that are really close to a real Jupiter by design are Arturia Jupiter 8V and U-He Diva.
Matching Jupiter 8 sounds with other synths seem to be difficult and needs some serious skills.


Ingo

[olikana]

Roland and Oberheim filters are very different in design and sound, in general...

Interesting, I just stumbled upon a patch comparison between the almost perfect Oberheim emulation OP-X Pro II and a real Roland Jupiter 8, and there are other patches copying different synths. Seems the differences are not as big as one might think

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386900

the ob-x (the synth that op-x tries to emulate)has a 12 db SEM filter and the jupiter 8 a 24db.
peter added a 24db flter to his "emulation" for it to be flexible enough to cater for most sounds. that 24db however is not present on the original op-x.
with just the original 12db SEM filter it would have not been possible to even get close to some of the jupiter 8 sounds.
the 12db would have not been able to cater for steep filtered sounds as simple as that. and viceversa a 24db filter would be too steep to cater for a 12db sound.
some modern synths allow to adjust the amount of poles of the synth....and peter added different filter types to make his synth a jack of all trades.
but an original op-x cannot make the same sounds of a jupiter 8 , especially when tighly modulated .
an ob-xA however might be able to deliver very close results but it's a totally different synth freom the ob-x . the obx-a has a 24db curtis filter and not the 12db SEM by oberheim.
some people infact love one and hate the other depending on filter taste (i'm more of a 24db person myself so i like the ob-xA more)

[Ingonator]

the ob-x (the synth that op-x tries to emulate)has a 12 db SEM filter and the jupiter 8 a 24db.
peter added a 24db flter to his "emulation" for it to be flexible enough to cater for most sounds. that 24db however is not present on the original op-x.

The Jupiter has a 12db and a 24dB LPF for which there is a "slope" switch in the filter section.
Additionally there is the HPF for which only the Cutoff could be controlled (no resonance and modulation of the HPF).

An interesting feature is the "polarity" switch at the filter envelope of the Jupiter with which you could invert the envelope. The "Neg Pluck" and "Neg Sync" factory sounds are using that feature.

An essential feature for doing those "typical" Sync sounds is that you could use an envelope (envelope 1 in the Jupiter) for modulation the pitch of one of the oscillators. Opposing to the OP-X emulation the original OB-X does not seem to offer this. Here are some nice pictures of the OB-X where you could the the features of the real thing:
http://www.retrosound.de/The_OB-X.htm

Like in several other synths the Osc waveforms in the original OP-X are limited to Saw and adjustable Pulse. FAIK a Triangle wave was added later with the OB8.

In The Jupiter 8 you got:
Osc1 : Triangle, Saw, Pulse (PWM), Square
Osc2: Sine, Saw, Pulse (PWM), Noise


Ingo

[olikana]

so what? I only responded in merit of the oberheim vs roland filter and just pointing out the obvious that a 12db cannot sound like a 24db.
and that peter added in op-x II a 24db that is not present on the original.
didn't say ob-x and jupiter 8 have the same features lol.
here's what i responded too.

Roland and Oberheim filters are very different in design and sound, in general...

Interesting, I just stumbled upon a patch comparison between the almost perfect Oberheim emulation OP-X Pro II and a real Roland Jupiter 8, and there are other patches copying different synths. Seems the differences are not as big as one might think

and just pointing out that evildragon was indeed right in his comment.


btw the features you mention (inverted modulation envelope and individual pitch modulation)) sure were nifty for the time but nowadays they are a given and pretty much essential stuff. features I expect in a synth as standard .can't imagine a workhorse synth without them

[fluffy_little_something]

I don't know the features of the OB-X emulation...

Anyway, the difference between a 12 and a 24 db filter depends a lot on the individual filters. I am playing around with a synth that has 3 LP filters, each in a 12 and a 24 db version. One of the 24 db filters sounds much more similar to a 12 db filter than to the other 24 db filters.

[Ingonator]

so what? I only responded in merit of the oberheim vs roland filter and just pointing out the obvious that a 12db cannot sound like a 24db.
and that peter added in op-x II a 24db that is not present on the original.
didn't say ob-x and jupiter 8 have the same features lol.

Exactly what i wanted to say and the 12dB and 24dB modes of the Jupiter 8 sound significantly different.
My post was more related to fluff little something.

I don't know the features of the OB-X emulation...

My comparison was about the hardware OB-X and the hardware Jupiter 8 where the emulation of the OB-X (and OP-X Pro II even more) contains features not included with the hardware OB-X and also (like e.g. envelope modulation for the pitch and a 12dB/24dB switch) while they are included with the hardware Jupiter 8.

Besides the filters there are several more difference like e.g. in the oscillators as already mentioned.

I was able too to replicate some Jupiter 8 sounds with other synths (e.g. Saurus) but that was limited to a few and with many other patches i just failed. THose problems with replicating the patches are not only based on different filters or oscillators but also on some specific behavior of the envelopes which could make it impossible to recreate certain sounds properly.


The point is:

With some great programming skills like Peter got (and he needed a while too...) it is possible to recreate certain sounds of the Jupiter 8 but this does not make OP-X Pro II a proper emulation.



One problem is that neither Peter nor myself have access to a real Jupiter 8 currently. The recreations are mostly based in audio demos at Synthmania and YouTube. The demos at Synthmania could be a problem as first they use some Reverb, second seem to contain slight variations of the patch sheets and third some seem to contain a second sound layered. Finally the sounds in those demos are sometimes played in a way where it is difficult to hear it evolving over time and there are hardly parts that only use a single note played over a longer time.

quote fro Peter of Sonicprojects:

The original factory patches have been re-programmed in every tiny detail (if possible) using the original factory patch sheets as well as various youtube videos and the excellent and complete patch-per-patch audio examples on synthmania:
http://www.synthmania.com/jupiter-8.htm

Some of the patches couldn't be properly re-programmed because of some missing Jupiter-8 exclusive features like oscillator 1 lo-frequency option and envelope 1 or 2 choice for the filter. In those cases the patches were replaced by an alternative similar sounding one. Concerned are mainly some of the effect sounds.

In fact a perfect emulation of a Jupiter 8 currently does not seem to exist but Arturia Jupiter 8V and Diva seem to be good approaches. While Diva sound wise is maybe a bit closer Jupiter 8V seems to be more accurate in terms of features and parameter ranges (which in Diva are totally different to the real thing).
I am also trying to improve Jupiter 8V with adding external FXs like e.g. an EQ and/or a small amount of a Chorus FX like TAL Chorus-LX (in mode I).


When i sold my Jupiter 8 back in 2004 one of the reasons was that i thought i'll find a replacement for it soon. More than 8 years later i have learned that it looks i have failed with that expectation.
Arturia Jupiter 8V is nice and i got some great results with it but it still lacks some of the "magic". With Diva i had mixed feelings. While sound wise it seemed to be great there were problems with the parameter ranges, features implemented differently and missing fgeatures like a proper unison, an Arp and split/layer. Was also not sure if the PWM was 100% right.


Ingo

[Ingonator]

People that wonder why i "rave" so much about the Jupiter 8 Synth Brass sounds could have a listen to those:









Ingo

[Ingonator]

Here is my rating for the synths in my list (see page 11 for the full list), rating in brackets (maximum 5/5):

SYNTHS:

Jupiter 8:
- Arturia Jupiter 8V 2.5 (4/5)
- U-He Diva (4/5)
Jupiter 6:
- U-He Diva (4/5)
Juno-60:
- TAL U-NO-LX (5/5)
- TAL U-NO-62 (3/5)
- U-He Diva (4/5)
Alpha-Juno / MKS-50:
- Phuturetone Phutura (3/5)
- U-He Diva (4/5)
JX-8P:
- Martin Lüders PG8X (5/5)
JX-3P:
- JV3P plugin (3/5)
SH-101:
- TAL BassLine-101 (5/5)
- D16 Lush-101 (4/5)
- TAL BassLine (freeware) (3/5)
TB-303:
- D16 Phoscyon (5/5)
- Venom VB-303 (4/5)
JP-8000:
- Adam Szabo JP6K (4/5)
- Superwave P8 (freeware) (3/5)

VP-330:
- Xils Lab V+ (5/5)
- G-Storm Plugins VSP-330 version 2.0 Voice Synth Plus (3/5)
D-50:
- Tube-Ohm Vintage (3/5)
- PinkNoise Deepflight (for Kontakt) (5/5)
SH-2:
- Kriminal Krolar SX-2 (3/5)

-----------------------------------------

DRUM MACHINES:

TR-909:
- D16 Drumazon (5/5)
- AudioRealism Drum Machine ("ADM") (4/5)
TR-808:
- D16 Nepethon (5/5)
- AudioRealism Drum Machine ("ADM") (4/5)
- Tactile Sounds TS-808 (3/5)

--------------------------------------

EFFECTS:

RE-201 Space Echo:
- GSI GS-201 Tape Echo (5/5)

SDD-320 Dimension D Chorus:
- Empty Room Systems Dim D (5/5)
- WOK VDimension (4/5)
- Xils Lab ChorX (4/5)
Juno Chorus:
- TAL Chorus-LX (5/5)



Ingo

[DrGonzo]

Man you're good! Thanks again! What's the next step? Walkthoughs on Youtube? (one could only hope).

/C

[Lotuzia]

One problem is that neither Peter nor myself have access to a real Jupiter 8 currently. The recreations are mostly based in audio demos at Synthmania and YouTube. The demos at Synthmania could be a problem as first they use some Reverb, second seem to contain slight variations of the patch sheets and third some seem to contain a second sound layered. Finally the sounds in those demos are sometimes played in a way where it is difficult to hear it evolving over time and there are hardly parts that only use a single note played over a longer time.

quote fro Peter of Sonicprojects:

The original factory patches have been re-programmed in every tiny detail (if possible) using the original factory patch sheets as well as various youtube videos and the excellent and complete patch-per-patch audio examples on synthmania:
http://www.synthmania.com/jupiter-8.htm

Some of the patches couldn't be properly re-programmed because of some missing Jupiter-8 exclusive features like oscillator 1 lo-frequency option and envelope 1 or 2 choice for the filter. In those cases the patches were replaced by an alternative similar sounding one. Concerned are mainly some of the effect sounds.

Ingo

The clips at Synthmania are an excellent approach of both what were the spirit behind a synthesizer like the Jupiter 8, and the way the factory patches are intended more or less to be played. Actually its a part of the synthesizer culture that is offered to us.

The layered sound you mention Ingo, are just dual presets that can be made with the original Jupiter 8, and are exactly what the preset sheet mentions ( as suggested edits ), they are always located at the end of the clips. So if you take the first part of the clips you only have the factory patch associated with this audio clip.

Also the natural chorus you mentioned for JP8 in a previous post is ime PWM, very accurately used in the factory patches. I've spent a lot of time to study this, and this can be heard in the Chorus Organ patch for example.

Reverb is not a problem, as it never hides the true character of the sound. I recreated it with Exponential Audio reverbs without effort. Its not that accurate, I totally agree, but it gives a similar feeling. At the beginning of one of the above audio demo, I showcased the Flute sound recreated on Oxium, with AND without reverb, so that people can see the difference and hear what I mean.

So below are 4 audio -LONG- clips, with more than 60 comparisons between a Jupiter 8 and Xils Oxium. I recreated some bits of the superb parts played by Paolo of Synthmania.

Oxium JP8 1
Oxium JP8 2
Oxium JP8 3
Oxium JP8 4

The how to of this soundbank can be read on Le Lotus Bleu site, should people need details. Like Peter999 I have to mention that some of the clips cant be reproduced accurately because of structural differences between the JP8 and Oxium. Nevertheless I included ALL the clips, and not only the best ones, so that people can hear the differences, and sometimes its hard to hear, between a synthesizer like Oxium and a real JP8, and make their own idea about all that Emulation/RealThing endless threads.

Oxium was never marketed as a JP8 recreation, the proximity between these two is what I would call an happy accident. Then, for synths pretending to emulate a JP8, I was always very surprised that very few to none A/B comparisons were produced/made available ..... Only A/B comparisons will reveal similarities between an emulation and the real thing imho.

Fwiw,

LtZ

[Ingonator]

Hi Laurent,

sorry that i forgot to mention the Oxium bank in my comparison which is indeed very nice.

Those patches are another good example how with some great programming skills it is possible to recreate such sounds on a synth that originally was not intended to be an emulation of the Jupiter 8.



Ingo

[Lotuzia]

Journey To The Land Of Ro - Part I
Ingo

Nice relaxed track Ingo

[Ingonator]

Journey To The Land Of Ro - Part I
Ingo

Nice relaxed track Ingo

Hi Laurent,

thanks for you kind comment. It was fun trying to do a track with Roland emulations only.

While i don't own any Roland currently i really appreciate their work they had done with their analog synths and also the D-50. A shame that Roland stopped doing analog synths a while ago.
Using the Deepflight Kontakt library makes me wish i would have a D-50 again. As it's not really expensive it could happen sometimes maybe.


Ingo