A thought experiment about Bitwig pricing

[apoclypse]

good post. interesting comparison. now we should compare the other DAW vendors and see what the actual prices are.

Electronic music producers, Hip Hop, Pop, etc. producers don't need (nor want, really) that old-school workflow.

What are you on bruh? Pass it along.

Very intelligent input added to the discussion. Thanks. What about what he said is so wrong? Ableton and FL Studio are pretty damn popular in those groups he mentioned. Pop probably shouldn't be in that list though.

There are plenty of electronic musicians making music with Logic, Studio One, Cubase. The type of music being made has nothing to do at all with the DAW being used. In FLStudio's case it could be that the DAW is super popular because not long ago (probably still the case) it was probably the most cracked DAW in existence. That has nothing to do with electronic musicians wanting to use it to do "bass music". There is nothing in FLStudio that lends it to make better "bass music" than say Logic, or Studio One.

Even so Studio One itself has made a lot of traction in the hip hop community and a lot of FLStudio producers have been moving to that. S1 is as traditional as it comes in-terms of workflow. They just added a pattern clip type to the DAW, but for all intents and purposes, its as linear as they come.

Basically it's a hyperbolic over generalization with no real basis in fact. It's opinion and should be stated as such imo.

I make "bass music" too and S1 is the best DAW to do that for me. If you ever watch a Youtube video or look at a pic of an arrangement made by a "bass music" producer they are usually as linear as any other more traditional daw for the most part. Most are just copying and pasting parts, loops, etc. Just like they did back in the Acid days when "bass music" was just Drum and Bass, and possibly Dubstep.

[Yokai]

good post. interesting comparison. now we should compare the other DAW vendors and see what the actual prices are.

Electronic music producers, Hip Hop, Pop, etc. producers don't need (nor want, really) that old-school workflow.

What are you on bruh? Pass it along.

Very intelligent input added to the discussion. Thanks. What about what he said is so wrong? Ableton and FL Studio are pretty damn popular in those groups he mentioned. Pop probably shouldn't be in that list though.

There are plenty of electronic musicians making music with Logic, Studio One, Cubase. The type of music being made has nothing to do at all with the DAW being used. In FLStudio's case it could be that the DAW is super popular because not long ago (probably still the case) it was probably the most cracked DAW in existence. That has nothing to do with electronic musicians wanting to use it to do "bass music". There is nothing in FLStudio that lends it to make better "bass music" than say Logic, or Studio One.

Even so Studio One itself has made a lot of traction in the hip hop community and a lot of FLStudio producers have been moving to that. S1 is as traditional as it comes in-terms of workflow. They just added a pattern clip type to the DAW, but for all intents and purposes, its as linear as they come.

Basically it's a hyperbolic over generalization with no real basis in fact. It's opinion and should be stated as such imo.

I make "bass music" too and S1 is the best DAW to do that for me. If you ever watch a Youtube video or look at a pic of an arrangement made by a "bass music" producer they are usually as linear as any other more traditional daw for the most part. Most are just copying and pasting parts, loops, etc. Just like they did back in the Acid days when "bass music" was just Drum and Bass, and possibly Dubstep.

Cool story. Try to do heavy sound design OUTSIDE of a synth in anything other than Ableton or Bitwig and get back to me with your findings. By that I mean complex, sophisticated racks that mangle the f**k out of audio and/or do crazy modulation to audio, and/or play interesting games with the MIDI input into synths.

Go ahead.... I'm waiting.

BTW you talk about seeing somebody's arrangement timeline and it looks like they're just copy/pasting a bunch of loops, right? Did it occur to you to ask yourself "what exactly is inside those clips? How they were created? You realize that things like synth presets or samples from a sample pack are just *starting* points for sound design, right? That a crap ton of the final sound comes from fairly extensive *audio processing* long after the sound from a synth preset has been flattened to audio.

[jarnold]

I can't believe people quibble over a couple hundred bucks for a fully functional DAW. Its peanuts compared to almost anything else. I bet more people have mobile phone plans that cost more per month. Adobe CC costs me $800 a year and it ceases to work if I fail to re-subscribe. Buying a coffee every day is $150 a month. A Bitwig plan works out at around $15 a month. Thats like 50c a day. Fark.

[Dj Walker]

Only update every major "MAJOR" update, that you feel worth it. Otherwise, don't do anything. Simple as that.

[pdxindy]

I can't believe people quibble over a couple hundred bucks for a fully functional DAW. Its peanuts compared to almost anything else. I bet more people have mobile phone plans that cost more per month. Adobe CC costs me $800 a year and it ceases to work if I fail to re-subscribe. Buying a coffee every day is $150 a month. A Bitwig plan works out at around $15 a month. Thats like 50c a day. Fark.

Money is the most important thing to most people... that is why they endlessly talk about it.

[tooneba]

Family and soul are. Money is the third.

[dellboy]

I can't believe people quibble over a couple hundred bucks for a fully functional DAW. Its peanuts compared to almost anything else. I bet more people have mobile phone plans that cost more per month. Adobe CC costs me $800 a year and it ceases to work if I fail to re-subscribe. Buying a coffee every day is $150 a month. A Bitwig plan works out at around $15 a month. Thats like 50c a day. Fark.

Can I come and live in OZ where money grows on Eucalyptus trees ?

[jarnold]

Well the Oz dollar is in the toilet so yeah, avoid buying any hardware... which is why cheap software like Bitwig is such great value

[antic604]

Can I come and live in OZ where money grows on Eucalyptus trees ?

Come live in Poland, it's still quite affordable here as well...

And really, if you can't generate enough money from your music production and/or real job to justify Bitwig, then there's plenty other cheaper options - FL, Reaper, Waveform, etc. Myself, I wouldn't use any of them if someone paid me to do it (I tried each 2-3 times).

[apoclypse]

good post. interesting comparison. now we should compare the other DAW vendors and see what the actual prices are.

Electronic music producers, Hip Hop, Pop, etc. producers don't need (nor want, really) that old-school workflow.

What are you on bruh? Pass it along.

Very intelligent input added to the discussion. Thanks. What about what he said is so wrong? Ableton and FL Studio are pretty damn popular in those groups he mentioned. Pop probably shouldn't be in that list though.

There are plenty of electronic musicians making music with Logic, Studio One, Cubase. The type of music being made has nothing to do at all with the DAW being used. In FLStudio's case it could be that the DAW is super popular because not long ago (probably still the case) it was probably the most cracked DAW in existence. That has nothing to do with electronic musicians wanting to use it to do "bass music". There is nothing in FLStudio that lends it to make better "bass music" than say Logic, or Studio One.

Even so Studio One itself has made a lot of traction in the hip hop community and a lot of FLStudio producers have been moving to that. S1 is as traditional as it comes in-terms of workflow. They just added a pattern clip type to the DAW, but for all intents and purposes, its as linear as they come.

Basically it's a hyperbolic over generalization with no real basis in fact. It's opinion and should be stated as such imo.

I make "bass music" too and S1 is the best DAW to do that for me. If you ever watch a Youtube video or look at a pic of an arrangement made by a "bass music" producer they are usually as linear as any other more traditional daw for the most part. Most are just copying and pasting parts, loops, etc. Just like they did back in the Acid days when "bass music" was just Drum and Bass, and possibly Dubstep.

Cool story. Try to do heavy sound design OUTSIDE of a synth in anything other than Ableton or Bitwig and get back to me with your findings. By that I mean complex, sophisticated racks that mangle the f**k out of audio and/or do crazy modulation to audio, and/or play interesting games with the MIDI input into synths.

Go ahead.... I'm waiting.

BTW you talk about seeing somebody's arrangement timeline and it looks like they're just copy/pasting a bunch of loops, right? Did it occur to you to ask yourself "what exactly is inside those clips? How they were created? You realize that things like synth presets or samples from a sample pack are just *starting* points for sound design, right? That a crap ton of the final sound comes from fairly extensive *audio processing* long after the sound from a synth preset has been flattened to audio.

Are you serious? You don't need any of that to do "bass music". Most people making "bass music" use Serum, Sylenth, Massive (still) and call it a day. I've barely seen anyone even touch M4L in Live for anything, they barely even use it for the drumsynths. People still manually draw in automation curves (S1 and Cubase have better automation tools than both Bitwig and Ableton Live...combined).

Most of what you wrote here is nonsense. Every major DAW is pretty much on par when it comes to mangling audio. Cubase has some of the best most comprehensive midi tools of any DAW, with maybe DP taking second place. DP also can now do everything Bitwig and Ableton can for the most part. There is nothing inherently special about Ableton, Bitwig, or FLStudio that makes it more suited to making "bass music" than any other DAW.

I never mentioned sample packs. I was talking about how things are arranged. I mentioned loops in the context of arrangement (as in dropping in an audio loop in the arrange view). Even so, you do know that audio manipulation is for the most often times better in most "traditional" Daws, than Ableton or Bitwig? You can't even normalize in Bitwig yet.

I know what's inside those audio clips, has nothing to do with the clueless statement about electronic music makers you made which is what I take issue with. I mean Reason has been around for years and it can do everything in-terms of modulation etc and has done so since the very beginning, is that better suited to making "bass music" too?

[antic604]

Are you serious? ... Most of what you wrote here is nonsense ... clueless statement about electronic music makers you made which is what I take issue with.

I wouldn't go that far

Anecdotal evidence you find on YT would make you believe *most* people do electronic music in Live or FL, whereas more "traditional" styles are created in "traditional" sequencers. Even Reason, with it's super complex modulation and routing possibilities, is mostly used to do hip-hop(ish) music.

That perception changed for me when I learned that Mindex is producing his music in Studio One and it's definitely not something I expected, considering how complex it is in terms of sound manipulation and modulation. So in the end you're right it's about knowing your tools and how to get that certain sound out of them.

So here's an example of awesome "bass music" produced in Studio One

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... Wsn2EmrNV5

[Yokai]

......

[Yokai]

Are you serious? You don't need any of that to do "bass music". Most people making "bass music" use Serum, Sylenth, Massive (still) and call it a day. I've barely seen anyone even touch M4L in Live for anything, they barely even use it for the drumsynths. People still manually draw in automation curves (S1 and Cubase have better automation tools than both Bitwig and Ableton Live...combined).

Sorry but you just lost all street cred. Learn to producer.

I can point to 50+ producers who very much do NOT just use Serum etc. and "call it a day". Producers I work and collaborate with on the reg. And that's just in my small circle. If you think anyone you see on the summer festival stages "just uses presets out of Serum (etc.) and stops there", you're sorely mistaken. There's a hella lotta sound design going on after all the synth tracks have been flattened to audio. And there's a reason most of those people you see up on stage are doing their work in Ableton or FL. (Or, slowly but surely, Bitwig because of the way it handles rack building just like Ableton, only better.)

And "barely even touching M4L in Live for anything"? Pfft. Every one of those producers I can point to who work in Live make liberal use of the LFO and Shaper M4L devices, and also the 3rd party Counter device. And some others, but those are the obvious ones off the top of my head.

Is it *possible* to do bass music, etc. in Studio One or Logic, etc.? Sure, of course it is. But is it as FAST to do in those linear DAWs? Nope. Can you build and reuse complex sound design racks as easily in those linear DAWs? For the most part, nope.

[apoclypse]

Are you serious? ... Most of what you wrote here is nonsense ... clueless statement about electronic music makers you made which is what I take issue with.

I wouldn't go that far

Anecdotal evidence you find on YT would make you believe *most* people do electronic music in Live or FL, whereas more "traditional" styles are created in "traditional" sequencers. Even Reason, with it's super complex modulation and routing possibilities, is mostly used to do hip-hop(ish) music.

That perception changed for me when I learned that Mindex is producing his music in Studio One and it's definitely not something I expected, considering how complex it is in terms of sound manipulation and modulation. So in the end you're right it's about knowing your tools and how to get that certain sound out of them.

So here's an example of awesome "bass music" produced in Studio One

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... Wsn2EmrNV5

This was more my point. But I'm not as eloquent as you. It's not the tool its the user. Ableton doesn't inherently make "bass music" easier, it's just a tool. Saying that "bass music" or more generally electronic music makers don't want to use traditional DAWs is an over generalization at best and a clueless statement at worst.

[apoclypse]

Are you serious? You don't need any of that to do "bass music". Most people making "bass music" use Serum, Sylenth, Massive (still) and call it a day. I've barely seen anyone even touch M4L in Live for anything, they barely even use it for the drumsynths. People still manually draw in automation curves (S1 and Cubase have better automation tools than both Bitwig and Ableton Live...combined).

Sorry but you just lost all street cred. Learn to producer.

I can point to 50+ producers who very much do NOT just use Serum etc. and "call it a day". Producers I work and collaborate with on the reg. And that's just in my small circle. If you think anyone you see on the summer festival stages "just uses presets out of Serum (etc.) and stops there", you're sorely mistaken. There's a hella lotta sound design going on after all the synth tracks have been flattened to audio. And there's a reason most of those people you see up on stage are doing their work in Ableton or FL. (Or, slowly but surely, Bitwig because of the way it handles rack building just like Ableton, only better.)

Is it *possible* to do bass music, etc. in Studio One or Logic, etc.? Sure, of course it is. But is it as FAST to do in those linear DAWs? Nope. Can you build and reuse complex sound design racks as easily in those linear DAWs? For the most part, nope.

And that's good for you. But you have no "street cred" either so I don't really care how many producers you know, that has no bearing on your assertions, which are just plain wrong.

S1 can do complex "racks" that can be re-use for both effects and instruments and unlike Ableton or Bitwig it won't kill your cpu while doing it.

In most polls Logic is only second to Ableton in popularity and the margin is slim to say the least. This is from April of last year https://ask.audio/articles/top-12-most- ... -voted-for. Ableton barely edges out Logic. FLStudio is not even hitting the double digits in terms of percentage so your assertion there is complete bunk.

So yeah you are talking out of your ass. Sorry.

Just to clarify I have no issues with you stating your opinion, but you are trying to state your opinion as fact which I do take issue with.