I don't mind a one time phone home for license authorization but a phone home every time the plugin is used would not be optimal.
Let's say you've got a project that uses 50 plugins (instruments and/or effects) from several developers and every one of them tries to call home to different servers every time you load a project.
Certainly it's plain that it wouldn't be the best situation for the end user and not something we as honest paying customers should encourage.
Let's wait and see what the official response is then we'll go from there. Perhaps his new scheme only requires a one time license check.
Fathom Synth Development Thread
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- KVRAF
- 18600 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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- KVRian
- 828 posts since 14 Sep, 2017
Still that wouldn't change what could happen when system crash, updates and more possible situations, all of this means dependency and hope always the company will be always there, for the following years, all is different with this new tied-to-the-machine process.Teksonik wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 4:23 pm I don't mind a one time phone home for license authorization but a phone home every time the plugin is used would not be optimal.
Let's say you've got a project that uses 50 plugins (instruments and/or effects) from several developers and every one of them tries to call home to different servers every time you load a project.
Certainly it's plain that it wouldn't be the best situation for the end user and not something we as honest paying customers should encourage.
Let's wait and see what the official response is then we'll go from there. Perhaps his new scheme only requires a one time license check.
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- KVRAF
- 18600 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA
Well if the alternative is that the developer goes out of business from lack of sales......
Sure in a perfect world there would be no copy protection or only a simple serial number that will keep working even if the developer quits but sadly that's not the world we live in.
The trick is to balance the financial security of the developer with the system security of the end user. In other words try to punish the honest paying customer as little as possible while still staying in business.
Sure in a perfect world there would be no copy protection or only a simple serial number that will keep working even if the developer quits but sadly that's not the world we live in.
The trick is to balance the financial security of the developer with the system security of the end user. In other words try to punish the honest paying customer as little as possible while still staying in business.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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- KVRAF
- 2575 posts since 2 Jul, 2010
THIS
Also this. I haven't updated Fathom in ages because digging through this thread to figure out the current setup is more effort than just using another synthesizer.Also I do have some sympathy with people looking at this and wondering "so what do I have to do to get this thing now?" I've kinda lost track of what licence/key/list of dance steps I need to download the latest version and so...haven't bothered while I work with other things.
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- KVRian
- 828 posts since 14 Sep, 2017
I understand that, is comprehensible, but many companies are doing well without the need to go all on this way and using un-intrusive mechanisms, I mean I respect the developers and their work, however the procedures have a big impact in my investment.Teksonik wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 4:37 pm Well if the alternative is that the developer goes out of business from lack of sales......
Sure in a perfect world there would be no copy protection or only a simple serial number that will keep working even if the developer quits but sadly that's not the world we live in.
The trick is to balance the financial security of the developer with the system security of the end user. In other words try to punish the honest paying customer as little as possible while still staying in business.
With the process of only-tied-to-machine just makes me think about what could/will happen if/when the company is not there anymore (what will happen the next 3, 5, 7, 10, 20, 30 years and so) it makes me feel concerned and with good reasons: The plug-in you paid for only will work as long as the company is there= you only have the product as long as the company is there. Only-tied-to-machine-License-key will not work, Only-tied-to-machine-serial will not work... that would be pretty bad news for me.
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- KVRAF
- 18600 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA
I sympathize with what you're saying. I wish I didn't need iLok soft manager, Native Access, IK License Manager etc just to make music but what can you do other that stick with only freeware ?
I could go back to hardware and watch it break in that same "3, 5, 7, 10, 20, 30 years" and pray I can find a tech to fix it and parts to get it done.
It may be that our choice is not use Fathom for fear of losing it in X amount of time or not using it at all now. One result is certain, one is not.
But again let's wait to see what the official response will be. Perhaps we are fretting over nothing.
I could go back to hardware and watch it break in that same "3, 5, 7, 10, 20, 30 years" and pray I can find a tech to fix it and parts to get it done.
It may be that our choice is not use Fathom for fear of losing it in X amount of time or not using it at all now. One result is certain, one is not.
But again let's wait to see what the official response will be. Perhaps we are fretting over nothing.
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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- KVRian
- 828 posts since 14 Sep, 2017
Well there are very high quality paidware companies that dont need more process like that, is not about freeware, but yeah lets wait and see.Teksonik wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 5:09 pm I sympathize with what you're saying. I wish I didn't need iLok soft manager, Native Access, IK License Manager etc just to make music but what can you do other that stick with only freeware ?
I could go back to hardware and watch it break in that same "3, 5, 7, 10, 20, 30 years" and pray I can find a tech to fix it and parts to get it done.
It may be that our choice is not use Fathom for fear of losing it in X amount of time or not using it at all now. One result is certain, one is not.
But again let's wait to see what the official response will be. Perhaps we are fretting over nothing.
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- KVRian
- 568 posts since 28 Oct, 2014
Well in my opinion, this MIGHT get him a few more sales, but it will also lose him some.
I would never have bought this synth if it was online activation from the beginning. I only accept C/R on apps like Soundforge etc, where it's not able to ruin a song file.
I do accept it on one Izotope plugin though, and that's just because the company is so big.
When i first started converting from cracks to legitimate software, the only C/R apps I bought, were the ones that had keygens readily available, which is strangely ironic.
And now, I have plugins that i bought years ago, and just don't want to use them because of the online activation.
Sad but true! I do feel their struggle, but my music is too important to me.
Cutting down the mono is a good idea though (though it does mean I won't even want to use that, if it has no wavetables)
Oh, and Fathom guy:
typo in the thread title (projection)
I would never have bought this synth if it was online activation from the beginning. I only accept C/R on apps like Soundforge etc, where it's not able to ruin a song file.
I do accept it on one Izotope plugin though, and that's just because the company is so big.
When i first started converting from cracks to legitimate software, the only C/R apps I bought, were the ones that had keygens readily available, which is strangely ironic.
And now, I have plugins that i bought years ago, and just don't want to use them because of the online activation.
Sad but true! I do feel their struggle, but my music is too important to me.
Cutting down the mono is a good idea though (though it does mean I won't even want to use that, if it has no wavetables)
Oh, and Fathom guy:
typo in the thread title (projection)
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- KVRist
- 370 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
My impression is: a business plan was missing from the start. I was one of the early adopters and payed for the Pro version and some upgrades. There were to many open development directions, to many changes etc. and I lost track which features are realised and which not. Earlier patches didn't work on later versions etc. It was a promising development but nobody should make its business decisions dependable on forum opinions. These are IMO the two basic mistakes. Now it is going to repeat asking for opinions on copy protection and it will not lead to anything. Successful software developers team up with professional composers and producers, then decide whom to follow in their opinions. Forum members with very different stances towards music production will present a very heterogeneous image.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1580 posts since 25 Mar, 2017
Wow, a lot of feedback!
Thanks everyone who contributed to this issue here, your opinions matter.
I got some things I need to attend to this afternoon, but I will read back through the thread tonight and then get back to you all here.
A couple of my thoughts...
Please don't forget that I'm a musician myself and I have installed fifty plugins on my own system, and I know better then anyone the pain and agony of a licensing system which is either too complex or too restrictive or only allows one license.
A couple of critical points, to keep in mind.
In terms of machine locked licenses.
1. I'm only doing this out of pure absolute necessity, it's not something I will enjoy, or even want.
2. There will be an email option to get the key so that socket com is optional not mandatory.
3. You can get keys for as many machines as you want.
Once you are in the system you will never be denied a key. Key requests for new machines will also be automated in email so you don't have to wait.
4. In the unlikely event that I become unavailable, I will always have a backup version of the current release requiring no key in the possession of my sound designers, so if something were to happen to me, the community would always have access to the most recent key free release.
In addition, there will even be provisions for an extreme scenario which will ensure that Fathom's source code itself would be available to the community if something should ever happen to me. There will be some sort of activation plan involving my sound designers. Plugin developers, don't get your hopes up there because let me assure you I'm quite healthy.
The email option is already implemented and it works fine, you just run the installer to get the local encrypted code and then send an email and my server automatically sends a response with the final key. None of your information is visible in the email, it only contains the local key which is encrypted.
Also, be aware than no user information is ever stored on my server other than user email which is necessary to track licenses, and it never includes financial information which not even I have access to at any time. Also the only thing stored on the server is the encrypted key itself, never anything used to create the key.
It uses a message length encryption key which if you want to read up on it, it has been proven mathematically to be impossible to crack since there is simply no way of knowing the relative values of the message text and obfuscation code in each byte, so the only way a hacker could get at it (in the absurdly unlikely chance they intercepted your email) would be to have the server source code, which they will not because the source code is kept on a different machine than the server. And once the system is running the source code will not be on either of my machines, and will be saved off site, so it would be physically impossible for an intruder to get a hold of it.
5. Installation instructions will be provided in all reasonable languages.
6. I'm not going away. If for some reason I am not able to keep the project as a full time project I will still be keeping a watchful eye on Fathom and will make sure serious problems such as crashes are responded to quickly and releases are updated. This is a worst case scenario and if I can get sales up in the next couple months through advertising and better software protection then it will not be necessary.
7. This is an unpleasant one, but Fathom Mono has WAY too many features. I've had time to think about this and the primary reason for low sales in Pro is that Fathom Mono basically does everything you need for a mono synth track which from my experience is 90% of the time. This is my own fault and no one else is to blame.
So the Wave Table oscillator is going out of Fathom Mono. Sorry folks, I know this absolutely sucks but there is simply no other way. There needs to be a reason to buy Fathom Pro to keep Fathom running as a surface vessel, and currently there is just not enough reason to buy Pro, other than people who so faithfully support the project especially here at KVR.
For those of you who are dead set on continuing to use Fathom Mono and not Fathom Pro, keep in mind you will always be able to cheat by simply loading up a preset which has the wave table oscillator in it, and save that as a "init" state preset and then just load that when you want to use the wave table in Fathom on a new track. There are even a few presets which have multiple wave table oscillators in them. By the time new users figure this out they will already have bought Fathom Pro.
People at KVR who are clever enough to see where Fathom is headed have supported the project, and this has been critical, however our market base needs to be extended beyond this.
Finally, I'm sorry if any of my posts sound negative. But I remain absolutely convinced that the world needs this synth, as there really is no other viable option for original waveform development that is also packaged with modular signal flow, accurate modulation including all the major modulator types and good sound quality (that I am familiar with). So we simply need to do whatever it takes to keep Fathom as a relevant synth.
Thanks everyone who contributed to this issue here, your opinions matter.
I got some things I need to attend to this afternoon, but I will read back through the thread tonight and then get back to you all here.
A couple of my thoughts...
Please don't forget that I'm a musician myself and I have installed fifty plugins on my own system, and I know better then anyone the pain and agony of a licensing system which is either too complex or too restrictive or only allows one license.
A couple of critical points, to keep in mind.
In terms of machine locked licenses.
1. I'm only doing this out of pure absolute necessity, it's not something I will enjoy, or even want.
2. There will be an email option to get the key so that socket com is optional not mandatory.
3. You can get keys for as many machines as you want.
Once you are in the system you will never be denied a key. Key requests for new machines will also be automated in email so you don't have to wait.
4. In the unlikely event that I become unavailable, I will always have a backup version of the current release requiring no key in the possession of my sound designers, so if something were to happen to me, the community would always have access to the most recent key free release.
In addition, there will even be provisions for an extreme scenario which will ensure that Fathom's source code itself would be available to the community if something should ever happen to me. There will be some sort of activation plan involving my sound designers. Plugin developers, don't get your hopes up there because let me assure you I'm quite healthy.
The email option is already implemented and it works fine, you just run the installer to get the local encrypted code and then send an email and my server automatically sends a response with the final key. None of your information is visible in the email, it only contains the local key which is encrypted.
Also, be aware than no user information is ever stored on my server other than user email which is necessary to track licenses, and it never includes financial information which not even I have access to at any time. Also the only thing stored on the server is the encrypted key itself, never anything used to create the key.
It uses a message length encryption key which if you want to read up on it, it has been proven mathematically to be impossible to crack since there is simply no way of knowing the relative values of the message text and obfuscation code in each byte, so the only way a hacker could get at it (in the absurdly unlikely chance they intercepted your email) would be to have the server source code, which they will not because the source code is kept on a different machine than the server. And once the system is running the source code will not be on either of my machines, and will be saved off site, so it would be physically impossible for an intruder to get a hold of it.
5. Installation instructions will be provided in all reasonable languages.
6. I'm not going away. If for some reason I am not able to keep the project as a full time project I will still be keeping a watchful eye on Fathom and will make sure serious problems such as crashes are responded to quickly and releases are updated. This is a worst case scenario and if I can get sales up in the next couple months through advertising and better software protection then it will not be necessary.
7. This is an unpleasant one, but Fathom Mono has WAY too many features. I've had time to think about this and the primary reason for low sales in Pro is that Fathom Mono basically does everything you need for a mono synth track which from my experience is 90% of the time. This is my own fault and no one else is to blame.
So the Wave Table oscillator is going out of Fathom Mono. Sorry folks, I know this absolutely sucks but there is simply no other way. There needs to be a reason to buy Fathom Pro to keep Fathom running as a surface vessel, and currently there is just not enough reason to buy Pro, other than people who so faithfully support the project especially here at KVR.
For those of you who are dead set on continuing to use Fathom Mono and not Fathom Pro, keep in mind you will always be able to cheat by simply loading up a preset which has the wave table oscillator in it, and save that as a "init" state preset and then just load that when you want to use the wave table in Fathom on a new track. There are even a few presets which have multiple wave table oscillators in them. By the time new users figure this out they will already have bought Fathom Pro.
People at KVR who are clever enough to see where Fathom is headed have supported the project, and this has been critical, however our market base needs to be extended beyond this.
Finally, I'm sorry if any of my posts sound negative. But I remain absolutely convinced that the world needs this synth, as there really is no other viable option for original waveform development that is also packaged with modular signal flow, accurate modulation including all the major modulator types and good sound quality (that I am familiar with). So we simply need to do whatever it takes to keep Fathom as a relevant synth.
Last edited by FathomSynth on Mon May 20, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 2798 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia
That is almost cute. Try 2800.FathomSynth wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 8:19 pm Please don't forget that I'm a musician myself and I have installed fifty plugins on my own system, and I know better then anyone the pain and agony of a licensing system which is either too complex or too restrictive or only allows one license.
Follow me on Youtube for videos on spatial and immersive audio production.
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- KVRist
- 275 posts since 3 Dec, 2009 from Cologne, Germany
No, no, no. This machine dependent c-r only proves mistrust to me the customer. I'd not only once problems using my legally bought software with self baken c-r authorization systems. The legal customer gets punished. Why not use established solutions like ilok or e-licenser? Or key files?
What if the business breaks? Just demonstrably happened several times!
I simply feel offended.
Really sad news.
What if the business breaks? Just demonstrably happened several times!
I simply feel offended.
Really sad news.
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- KVRAF
- 2798 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia
Ilok would be my preferred choice but I have a certain feeling that would cause a riot here.
Follow me on Youtube for videos on spatial and immersive audio production.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 1580 posts since 25 Mar, 2017
Yes, I realize everyone gets punished, and so do I because now I have to maintain a licensing system instead of zipping up release.
So my own time suffers a hundred times more than any one else's.
But, guess what, life is not fair. Seriously, it really isn't.
Do we all, honest people, suffer because a small percentage of people use hacked software, and so we have to contend with licence managers, yes we do, absolutely I agree with you. And I agree software licensing is complete and utter agony, and would not life be great if it was not necessary.
The problem is (I have discovered the hard way) that it is necessary.
The problem is that outside of KVR people that use software for free is not a small percentage.
Does it make sense to cancel the project because we are afraid of machine locked licenses? No! that would be crazy.
Just count your blessings that I will not be using a hardware USB system!
So my own time suffers a hundred times more than any one else's.
But, guess what, life is not fair. Seriously, it really isn't.
Do we all, honest people, suffer because a small percentage of people use hacked software, and so we have to contend with licence managers, yes we do, absolutely I agree with you. And I agree software licensing is complete and utter agony, and would not life be great if it was not necessary.
The problem is (I have discovered the hard way) that it is necessary.
The problem is that outside of KVR people that use software for free is not a small percentage.
Does it make sense to cancel the project because we are afraid of machine locked licenses? No! that would be crazy.
Just count your blessings that I will not be using a hardware USB system!
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- KVRAF
- 5716 posts since 8 Jun, 2009
One small point, IIRC this is only true of a one-time pad system, which leaves you with the small problem of distributing enough key bits securely to get the one-time pad into customers' systems. Message length with repeated use of the same key is not impossible to crack and the simplest way to hack this short of gaining access to the server OS itself is to sniff traffic at or close to the server.FathomSynth wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 8:19 pm It uses a message length encryption key which if you want to read up on it, it has been proven mathematically to be impossible to crack...
I really think you're overthinking or overengineering the solution here. If all user systems are provided with different private keys for authentication and you can update the credentials on the server at will, the cost of having a single key broken is minimal. It's hard to see a need for the entire system to be entirely uncrackable when you can repudiate any keys found to have been compromised.
