VST FX/Instruments Watermarked

[WOK]

tonehammer DO go to that effort,

That are samples, not VSTs.

and i fought and fought for days and finally got a refund.

Well, it's stated on their site:
"All (non-Requiem) customers will be required to provide full ID information for verification purposes"
"Resale/refund prohibited"

[whyterabbyt]

Well, it's stated on their site:
"All (non-Requiem) customers will be required to provide full ID information for verification purposes"
"Resale/refund prohibited"

How would you react if your supermarket allowed you to take stuff to the till, pay for it, then they confiscated it on the way out because you didn't consent to an ID check, then refused you a refund? That's basically what we're talking about.

What you're quoting is self-contradicting. If there's no final sale, if you wont let someone own something without providing 'full ID', then its not a refund for the product; its a refund of their (refused) attempt to buy it.

You should't withhold the refund of a payment if you're denying someone ownership of the product they paid for in the first place.

Its probably not legal in a lot of places, either. And Im sure under these comnditions decent credit card companies would support the refused buyer when it came to a 'forced' refund. Even if they stated it was a non-refundable full-price deposit and ownership was entirely speculative on passing their ID check, its still pretty unlikely to fly, legally.

If Tonehammer wanted to be doing this 'properly' they'd immediately issue a refund on refusal, or they'd ask for the ID before payment.

[evitan]

For me the big question is why they want the ID and what they want to do with ?

[macmurphy]

tonehammer DO go to that effort, they want a scanned passport before they send you your download links.

really? they didn't want any scanned id from me..

where exactly does it say on their site id is needed? i've just been looking and can't find it anywhere.

[WOK]

How would you react if your supermarket allowed you to take stuff to the till, pay for it, then they confiscated it on the way out because you didn't consent to an ID check, then refused you a refund? That's basically what we're talking about.

Wrong analogy. And no one is forced to buy at such a "supermarket". Look somewhere else.
I do not support such business strategies, but every company can do business as they like. If they say "we only sell to identified customers because we save his data in the files" it's their decision. If someone orders something and during the order process agrees to the trading conditions (and even sends the money), he made a contract. Then he has to fullfill the contract. Everyone should read trading conditions before "signing" an order.
I would not buy something from this company, but it's also annoying me when reading about people complaining about problems with companies when they did not read terms and conditions or a contract they signed before. I had similar things in (private) ebay auctions more than once - got mails AFTER the auction was finished "oops, I did not read that the unit is defective, can I withdraw?" (was written in bold, 16pt). "oops, this 2 meter, 200kg cabinet is for pickup only?! I did not read this"  

really? they didn't want any scanned id from me..
where exactly does it say on their site id is needed? i've just been looking and can't find it anywhere.

Seems to be only with the expensive libraries:
http://www.tonehammer.com/?p=4276  
(because they love you and the prices are so low   )

[Lenticular]

I had similar things in (private) ebay auctions more than once - got mails AFTER the auction was finished "oops, I did not read that the unit is defective" (was written in bold, 16pt). "oops, this 2 meter, 200kg cabinet is for pickup only?! I did not read this"  

In the U.S.A. private auctions are 'as is' & not the same contractually as buying retail software from a company unless otherwise stated.

[trimph1]

OK...

Requiem is water marked for each individual customer
Watermarks are embedded into all files both source and patch files using our own technology
All customers will be required to provide full information for verification purposes
All customers will receive unique sample/source files with embedded custom water marking
All customers will have specific files sent to their verified mail account
This library contains custom water marked files. Each library set is custom marked for each customer.
The water marking methodology is proprietary to Tonehammer, INC
Resale/refund prohibited

...taken from...http://www.tonehammer.com/?p=4276

[trimph1]

persuant to my first thing..we have this on the same page...

Price: $649
Anybody who orders will receive an immediate confirmation mail
All customers are required to provide full information for water marking and verification purposes
Tonehammer reserves the right to reverse any suspicious order and/or from anybody who fails to give proper identification. Any refund/reversed expenses are paid by customer.
Tonehammer does not allow any reversal of orders
Requiem is exclusively available through Tonehammer

It is on the same Requiem page....

[WOK]

Private auctions are 'as is' & not the same contractually as buying retail software from a company unless otherwise stated.

Contract is contract, private or office.   What I wanted to point out is, that many people do not read what they do and click while in the web (that's why still viruses spread by mails saying "Microsoft sends you an important security update attached with this mail" and I still have to delete mails every day from "Nigerian presidents", who elected me to receive their 500 Million $ bank reserve.....)

[cryophonik]

I think this whole issue is just smoke and mirrors designed to scare off potential pirates. The developer is banking on the hope that paranoid pirates won't take off their tin foil hats, think about it for 15 seconds, and realize how quickly the logic falls apart. The burden of proving piracy is placed on the developer, which would require an extraordinary level of effort and cost, and would still be difficult to prove based solely on the presence of a watermark - any halfwit defense attorney could offer other explanations. And, moreover, to what end? The hope that the pirate gets a slap on the wrist, or has to buy the product in question? Balance that with the number of potential legitimate customers that they would scare off and IMO the whole concept just doesn't hold water.

[Lenticular]

Private auctions are 'as is' & not the same contractually as buying retail software from a company unless otherwise stated.

Contract is contract, private or office.   What I wanted to point out is, that many people do not read what they do and click while in the web (that's why still viruses spread by mails saying "Microsoft sends you an important security update attached with this mail" and I still have to delete mails every day from "Nigerian presidents", who elected me to receive their 500 Million $ bank reserve.....)

Nope, not in the U.S. it's not the same contractually. You'd be SOOL trying to get your money back from an 'as is' sale & in that respect a retail company would have a better chance winning a case against you if they they could prove you their watermarked product without a license or consent.

Spreading viruses via email or giving your private info or money away is a totally different issue than entering into a binding contract.

[trimph1]

I got my flame retardant suit on here...

I got an idea...why not just open up all software? No copy right protection at all...open source does it...

Will it stop the pirates? megh...doubt it. Does not matter what c/p is used..open/closed..the cracker is going to keep on crackin'


Crackers gonna crack...

[Lenticular]

I got my flame retardant suit on here...

I got an idea...why not just open up all software? No copy right protection at all...open source does it...

Will it stop the pirates? megh...doubt it. Does not matter what c/p is used..open/closed..the cracker is going to keep on crackin'


Crackers gonna crack...

You'll just have to pay more in the long run either by purchasing a valid license with an inflated price to adjust for the software company's piracy loss or by going to court.

[WOK]

Will it stop the pirates? megh...doubt it. Does not matter what c/p is used..open/closed..the cracker is going to keep on crackin' Crackers gonna crack...

Well, often they don't even know how to crack. Guess how many of my FREE plugins I found on warez sites already? I even saw websites claiming to be official and selling them. So I can understand why companies try out new ideas, and as long as they state it clearly on their site, it's OK. What's strange about Tonehammer is, that they want to have their customers private information, but they even hide their adress from their site very good....

[highkoo]

(No one would even have known about Tone2 without the pirates, ffs.)

One point to make maybe,
Watermarking, or even just the rumor of it, has had cumulative negative effect on Tone2 and Tonehammer.
They attract crackers attention by doing it, while at the same time making legit prospective customers sketched out.
Whats that all about?


And regardless of 'notice', do any of you somehow not think its empirically ridiculous to show a passport to buy samples?

edit:
I guess I should say, I would never buy.. anything on the internet that requires me to give the seller even my real name. Im paranoid like that, and a lot of others are too. Not a single dev or ebay seller knows my real name or location....