KVR Audio

Katelyn · Post by **Katelyn** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 9:37 am

edit: New mix:

https://soundcloud.com/katelyn-rajas/vamachara-demo-1

So I'm in the final stages of mixing/working on a full-on/acid-ish psytrance track of mine, and I have been running into a couple of issues. Two of the instruments seem to clip at higher notes, but I can't seem to fix it without getting rid of the overall sound's "character", and if I try to lower the volume to compensate, you can't really hear the instrument anymore. I've alleviated this somewhat by adjusting individual note volume but that's abut it.

I also kind of feel like the track is hitting peak volume too much. The soft clipping that this results in isn't so much an issue in this regard as it is of my feeling that the entire track is too loud.

I'm not really sure what else to do, other than to use some compression on various parts and try my best to adjust volume levels of all the instruments to varying degrees throughout the track... there are quieter subtle elements all throughout but in the end it all still sounds loud overall throughout much of the track. But back to my thought about compression, and I hate to admit is, other than side chain compression I've not really ever gotten a hand on the best way to use it, I always just worked around that issue by being more careful of what frequencies I use together and using more equalization. It's something I've avoided figuring out for a while now.

Most of the track recorded in audacity; the light blue is average, you can see in the dark blue it hits the top volume a lot (that or I'm not understanding something correctly):

Any help would be *greatly* appreciated.

Edit: Just occurred to me to also provide the actual audio... uploading right now.

Katelyn · Post by **Katelyn** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:49 am

https://soundcloud.com/katelyn-rajas/demo-2-1-wav

For some reason,my program didn't save me cutting off the first 30 seconds of silence that I left in it when working in my DAW... I'd reupload but that would take me another 30 mins on my internet if I want to keep it in a lossless quality...

From the description:

A demo of a track I'm trying to finish up. It's still missing a recording of a heavy acid sound I want to put in some parts, as well as maybe a couple of small subtle things, but for the most part what's wrong with it at the moment is the dynamic range and equalization/volume balance at various parts. The guitar's higher notes hit too hard at times but I'm having trouble fixing that without ruining it's tonal quality. I'm also (kind of) planning on rerecording my one violin part that comes in about half way through as it's just an edited open G string used for those melodies... and record me playing it so that every note that it plays on is a true recording of whatever note is used and not derived from an open G.

Aloysius · Post by **Aloysius** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:02 am

The guitar's higher notes hit too hard at times but I'm having trouble fixing that without ruining it's tonal quality.

You could use some dynamic EQ/Compression to target the harsh frequencies when they get too much energy.

I love you music. Good luck with it.

camsr · Post by **camsr** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:29 pm

Try using a limiter instead of a clipper, and less sharp EQ.

Paschalis I. · Post by **Paschalis I.** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:49 am

This is not the master track clipping there's one (or maybe more than 2 tracks) that the sound is clipping.

So I suppose that you didn't do anything wrong during mastering but there's something wrong in mixing
that peaks the signal.

Maybe you missed a peaking signal inside of one of the plugins?
It can happen without noticing it !

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:57 am

Just decrease the master gain of the entire thing. The only trade-off you're making then is regarding average RMS (when comparing how "loud" a track is vs. others in its genre) and noise floor.

Working in floating point noise floor isn't an issue.

Average RMS can be adjusted afterward with a limiter without doing too much damage to the complete track. You can bring average RMS up by reducing dynamic range and you can bring it down by reducing master gain.

Katelyn · Post by **Katelyn** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:42 am

Aloysius wrote:
The guitar's higher notes hit too hard at times but I'm having trouble fixing that without ruining it's tonal quality.
You could use some dynamic EQ/Compression to target the harsh frequencies when they get too much energy.

I love your music. Good luck with it.

o.o I didn't think I was that good, thank you

camsr wrote:Try using a limiter instead of a clipper, and less sharp EQ.

@response to both Aloysius and camsr;

After reading this the other day it occurred to me to retry with filters to somehow only block the harsh frequencies that way, instead of trying to use EQ as I noticed I had a bit' more success with a low pass filter, but I need to retain some of the higher frequencies or the guitar looses it's prominence in the track.

Also I'm not sure what precisely dynamic EQ is, is that different from setting the EQ knobs to an automation that changes as needed when it's playing? I was thinking of that for when it plays the higher notes, that or make a clone track that only plays the higher notes but with different EQ, leaving the original track alone other than it no longer playing those higher notes.

edit;

Another idea has been to hold off finishing the track until my roomie can get a hold of a new amp and I get a midi interface so we can just record him on a real guitar playing it and not the 'fake' one so to say in my track.

That would work since it's no longer a synthesized guitar but has the real timbre of an actual guitar as opposed to the part of the higher timbre I'm currently trying to get rid of. But knowing us I have no idea how soon we could realistically get the extra gear xD

I will note that however the lone violin (not the backing ones) was made from sampling me playing my own, real violin >.> So it's not all artificial timbres... it stood out without interfering for perhaps that fact alone... perhaps a real guitar recording would as well for the same reason.

Paschalis I. wrote:This is not the master track clipping there's one (or maybe more than 2 tracks) that the sound is clipping.

So I suppose that you didn't do anything wrong during mastering but there's something wrong in mixing
that peaks the signal.

Maybe you missed a peaking signal inside of one of the plugins?
It can happen without noticing it !

Other than the guitar I guess it could be the 303 bass colliding with some other low frequencies... I'll have to look at all the tracks and fx channels and see what all it could be.

aciddose wrote:Just decrease the master gain of the entire thing. The only trade-off you're making then is regarding average RMS (when comparing how "loud" a track is vs. others in its genre) and noise floor.

Working in floating point noise floor isn't an issue.

Average RMS can be adjusted afterward with a limiter without doing too much damage to the complete track. You can bring average RMS up by reducing dynamic range and you can bring it down by reducing master gain.

Perhaps since I'm still a newb to all of this (only been off and on trying for the last 10 months), I don't really understand what you are saying. After I read up on what RMS and floating point noise floor is I'll get back to you >.>

My apologies :p

Jace-BeOS · Post by **Jace-BeOS** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:53 am

Have you stripped out unnecessary/inaudible low frequency noise from your tracks? That tends to add to the energy that leads to clipping, without providing any value to the audio. If you're not sure that there's any such frequency content, run a scope on each track.

Tricky-Loops · Post by **Tricky-Loops** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:54 am

I guess aciddose didn't mean "floating point noise floor" but rather that noise floor isn't a problem if your working with 32 bit floating point WAV files...

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:18 am

Yes, it looks to me as if you simply have the gain of the entire track way too high, by at least 10db or so. You're talking about clipping in some parts although I'm not sure which parts those may be, the track through looks like you've taken just about any track and increased the gain by 10 to 20db and clipped it.

Of course we really don't have enough horizontal resolution to say anything based upon the image and it is entirely possible it is just a whole lot of 4/4 of a very rectangular kick drum pulse.

Listening to the audio it seems it's a whole lot of very rectangular just about everything

Although you say you feel the timbre/mix is right as it is, so I can't suggest anything.

Katelyn · Post by **Katelyn** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 2:47 am

aciddose wrote:Yes, it looks to me as if you simply have the gain of the entire track way too high, by at least 10db or so. You're talking about clipping in some parts although I'm not sure which parts those may be, the track through looks like you've taken just about any track and increased the gain by 10 to 20db and clipped it.

Of course we really don't have enough horizontal resolution to say anything based upon the image and it is entirely possible it is just a whole lot of 4/4 of a very rectangular kick drum pulse.

Listening to the audio it seems it's a whole lot of very rectangular just about everything Although you say you feel the timbre/mix is right as it is, so I can't suggest anything.

Er part of that is when I exported it I forgot to turn on part of the percussion that gave it more variety >.>

The master volume is actually turned down quite a bit, but I think I know what the issue is then (probably the guitar and kick too high).

The timbre is largely how I want it but it doesn't feel mixed entirely correctly yet, which is why I made the topic.

Also by 'rectangular' do you mean that it's largely using notes in factors of 4? i.e. 4th notes, 8th notes 16th ect? That 'choppy' rhythm has been something I've been trying to break out of overall with my tracks... the percussion I left off kind of fix that some but heck if I know.

Anyways when I get to work on it next I'll try everything that's been suggested so far.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:34 am

I mean "rectangular" in terms not just using repeating sequences of notes as you say but also because all the component parts are almost always on. There is really no variation or time to breathe.

That's something with genre though. Advice you usually hear is "try to format your parts like a conversation" and "sometimes the note that isn't played is the one that matters."

For example you might have a bit of sax solo followed by some bass notes, then a response from the sax with some flute notes overlapping into the bass response, a pause, a flute solo and so on. Then you have two or three parts active but often not all of them and often in short bursts.

I'd reduce the level on most of the brighter sounds by at least 10db if not 20db in some cases. You might want to also consider starting and stopping a few parts in pattern once in a while to reduce the total density of the track, which seems way active at the moment. The rhythm encoded in those starts and stops is another rhythm on top of what you've got going on with percussion.

Katelyn · Post by **Katelyn** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:00 am

I guess then the one part where the guitar is kind of doing a solo near the climax didn't really stick out then... okay technically not a solo sense the bass/percussion and backing strings were in there too...

But ya, I've been thinking over what to do to give more rhythmic variety before I finish up the track, but to some degree it needs to stay relatively constant for that psytrance/goa feel... I'll probably tweak the melodies and for the main one make two rhythmic varieties that alternate a couple of times before they combine near the end with the gated and ungated synth tracks.

Was just checking and rereading on the topic... about to dive back into this track and/or another one I started a bit' ago and not get out until sunbreak >.> I have a feeling it's gonna be that kind of night.

Vospi · Post by **Vospi** » Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:02 am

First. Of course we're getting a 128kbps here. You can upload anything, Soundcloud will transcode to 128kbps mp3. And what you've fed it will surely sound bad.

Second. This is a very bad mix. Not because you didn't use EQ enough or your dynamic range is not okay, this all is not relevant. It's just you can't get a good mix when you're throwing everything but a kitchen sink in the same range and ignore your scales completely. You can't mix something that's written that way; almost all your parts are running for the same kind of thing in very close note ranges.

Guitars are resonating terribly, they're neither contained nor punchy. You can tell that about a lot of instruments here, really. LIsten to a little pause you get at 6:03; you even have internal clipping somewhere for "guitar synths" or whatever that timbre is. A lot of instruments are very extended to your HF range, which is terrible. It makes all the sounds standing right in front of one's nose, making no difference between background and foreground sounds, except of merely volume. Stereo is something you're currently leaving to a feeling or a chance; get free Voxengo MSED plugin and listen to your Mid and Side separately. After that, make a bandpass filter on a master buss and listen to different parts of your mix. Maybe not on something you've mixed the track on, cause either it's bad or you don't have much experience with it.

And all this technical talk doesn't mean too much right now. The track is not scary or massive -- for example, because you've squashed everything so you just can't get LF passing through (they're too slow, sorry); but mainly because you should learn your ways of writing. Pick a scale, build harmonies around it and don't deviate for some time. You will be amazed how it's much, much easier to get right a mixdown for mindfully composed piece.

Katelyn · Post by **Katelyn** » Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:32 am

Vospi wrote:First. Of course we're getting a 128kbps here. You can upload anything, Soundcloud will transcode to 128kbps mp3. And what you've fed it will surely sound bad.

Okay, I hadn't known that.

Second. This is a very bad mix. Not because you didn't use EQ enough or your dynamic range is not okay, this all is not relevant. It's just you can't get a good mix when you're throwing everything but a kitchen sink in the same range and ignore your scales completely.

This is a bunch of baloney, I was exactly on scale. Just because you don't know the scale I was using doesn't mean I went off scale. Every note was on scale.

As far as being in similar ranges, I can admit to that probably being partially issue, but I don't think it was that overdone. There is one synth sound, the guitar and the violin sample as the three most forward instruments... and They all come out separate from one another at least to my ears. However I did as one person said and got some highpass filters on (as well as a second low pass for the guitar) and it's sounding better now.

You can't mix something that's written that way; almost all your parts are running for the same kind of thing in very close note ranges.

I guess I was aiming for the guitar in low mid, violin in mid, and synth in higher mids. But ya I said, still in the mixing proccess. Trying to fix the guitar clipping was half the reason I made the topic.

Guitars are resonating terribly, they're neither contained nor punchy. You can tell that about a lot of instruments here, really. LIsten to a little pause you get at 6:03; you even have internal clipping somewhere for "guitar synths" or whatever that timbre is.

I know. But taking away too much resonance messes up the timbre. If it's not fixed in my new mix I'll just record a real guitar playing the parts.

A lot of instruments are very extended to your HF range, which is terrible. It makes all the sounds standing right in front of one's nose, making no difference between background and foreground sounds, except of merely volume.

I'll have to check that then. Still new to all of this.

Stereo is something you're currently leaving to a feeling or a chance;

I'm not sure what you mean by this... if you mean the 'spacing' of where certain instruments are in a stereophonic matrix, I've messed with that but ya I mostly do things by ear when adjusting a sound.

get free Voxengo MSED plugin and listen to your MId and SIde separately. After that, make a bandpass filter on a master buss and listen to different parts of your mix. Maybe not on something you've mixed the track on, cause either it's bad or you don't have much experience with it.

All right, I'll let you know if it helps.

And all this technical talk doesn't mean too much right now. The track is not scary or massive -- for example, because you've squashed everything so you just can't get LF passing through (they're too slow, sorry); but mainly because you should learn your ways of writing.

I don't think it was supposed to be scary or massive >.> I was trying to find something that expressed part of who I am. Maybe I tried a little to hard with this track *shrugs*

I'll either have to cut some stuff out or try transposing octaves and/or some very brutal EQ to see if that works.

Pick a scale, build harmonies around it and don't deviate for some time.

I do have scale. A variant of an Indian Raga scale, every instrument is on it and doesn't deviate unless I accidentally missed something somewhere:

D, D#, F#, G, A, A#, C#

Harmony wise I tend to use western minor chords where chords are directly used (and not something like a 'chord' that hits the same note on 2 or 3 octaves).

But if you know a better chord for suiting that scale, feel free to let me know which one.

You will be amazed how it's much, much easier to get right a mixdown for mindfully composed piece.

This was mindful o.0 Mindfully manic and unrelenting. But ya I know I suck, but I guess that is why I'm here

===============

Edit:

Holy crap, transposing a couple of things an octave or two around after adding highpass filters on everything and adjusting/adding some lowpass on some other things (to weed out any frequencies out of their audible range) has done wonders to make everything sound more distinct. Though now it feels slightly hollow... I'll address that once I get everything else down, that's probably a sound design issue and that can probably easily be fixed with some tweaking.

Trying to get better dynamic range and less clipping