Proper Gain Structure & dbfs?

[Compyfox]

I also tried this with 0 dB Pan law, and the dBFS from channel to Stereo Out raised by +0.2 (summing?), but the VU was the same on the channel and Stereo Out. Also, when panning the sine wave hard L & R with -3 pan law, the dBFS and VU match from channel to stereo out. So how does a Bus being fed a signal have a higher dBFS but a lower VU?

Ah, Pan Law - a completely own topic that I haven't fully understood myself. Even the Wikipedia entry is confusing and non telling. Pan Law as something to do with the acoustic summing of the monitor rooms? Who wrote that nonsense?

To my understanding, Pan Law does pull down the volume by a certain set ammount (in Cubase this can be something between -6 to 0dB) to compensate the volume boost if two same signals, with the same phase, at the same volume applied on a stereo channel (virtual mono).

And this is why you might get crazy readouts on the summing bus if you apply a sine wave at 1kHz on the channel pre fader (and therefore pre-metering) and then route it forward to the summing bus and measure in post.

If you turn off the pan law to 0dB, your shifts are gone. Doesn't mean that your mixes are then wrong in terms of loudness (summing) - they're still correct pre fader, and now they have the same signal strength in post as well. Remember, signals are adding up. Heck, chances are that different applied meters give different readouts (happend so recently to myself as well, while creating presets for SATIN).

It's just a compensation of a circuit. And nobody really thought about this (unless you were really courious, and did measurements, calibrations, etc).



The dBFS (peak) shift is also easily answered.

SATSON saturates the signal, in stereo mode it even adds crosstalk. And even if minimal, that registers on the meters with the +0,2dB. Even if you didn't use SATSON or something like that, just a plain VU or even Cubase internally can show slightly different values. I see that as "tolerance window" (tough 0,2dB is a lot IMO). Nothing to worry about.



Long story short:
Don't overthink things. Just setup your system how you feel like (my pan rule is at -4,5dB btw, like large scale consoles) and then mix to your hearts content within suitable limits/parameters.


Sorry, can't help you much more on this. Pan Law is definitely not a topic that I can answer blindly.

(as someone once told me: you don't need to inherit remember everything, you just need to know where to look in terms of catch up with knowledge holes)

[MyKill]

...my pan rule is at -4,5dB btw, like large scale consoles...
Pan Law is definitely not a topic that I can answer blindly.

I kept hearing -3dB is the standard, which is the only reason I have mine set up that way. Had no idea about -4.5 on large consoles.

In practice, everything you said is working except the kick. No matter what combination of Input Gain, Plug ins, whatever, the ONLY way to get my kick up to 0VU on the Stereo Bus Insert VU is to have it close to -2.5 on my channel meter (dBFS).
Perhaps I don't have enough practice with this method yet, but that is the reading I'm getting. If I get it to 0VU in the actual channel VU, the Setero VU is nowhere near that. I'm about to pull my ****ing hair out.

Bass intensive material = 0VU (but still around -8-9 dBFS peak) right?
Transient Intensive material = no higher than -9dBFS

Bass guitar "leveled" to 0VU in the Stereo Bus VU = ~ -12 dBFS
Kick Drum "leveled" to 0VU in the Stereo Bus VU = -2.5 dBFS

I have to get this EP finished before the 1st of October because we still have to get it Mastered and the video up by Halloween, and it seems I'm just going backwards

I get 0VU OR -9dBFS, but 0VU should not equal -2.7 dBFS in any case as I have read this monstrosity of a post.

[MyKill]

So I was thinking, all I've done in this post is beg for answers and not offered anyone any help on anything else. So before I get back to grinding peoples nerves, perhaps I can help on 2 topics:

Ah, Pan Law - a completely own topic that I haven't fully understood myself. Even the Wikipedia entry is confusing and non telling. Pan Law as something to do with the acoustic summing of the monitor rooms? Who wrote that nonsense?....
Don't overthink things. Just setup your system how you feel like (my pan rule is at -4,5dB btw, like large scale consoles) and then mix to your hearts content within suitable limits/parameters.


Sorry, can't help you much more on this. Pan Law is definitely not a topic that I can answer blindly.

(as someone once told me: you don't need to inherit remember everything, you just need to know where to look in terms of catch up with knowledge holes)

I forgot I started a thread on this last year. Plenty of good advice
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

I have to admit that I'm oldschool and do not mess in audio editors (destructive editing) but rather go for knobs (non destructive). Though volume changes in an audio editor in Cubase can be handled non-destructive these days, I don't feel comfortable doing so.

Sometimes it also renders it impossible to do automation, fades and the likes. So... I stick to the mixing console.

I believe it would behove you, or anyone using Cubase, to really spend some time digging in the manual and getting a firm grip on the "Clip" and "Event" structure. I did, and I love it. What I did was start a fresh project and size it so I could see the actual project on the top half on the screen, and beneath that I opened the "Audio" and "Edits" folders (inside the Project folder) through Explorer (or Finder), read the manual and started trying stuff to see what is actually happening in these folders.
As you know, Cubase doesn't use destructive editing on the original source file, it simply makes new files. The thing is, if you know for sure you want a certain compressor all the way through one of your tracks, you can set it as usual in the inserts, save the preset, then run it as an offline process. You then can see a new waveform for the file in the project showing the results of the compression, and the compressor is no longer taking up CPU or RAM. You can then stack effects in this manner.
The great part is, viewing the offline process history, you can disable and modify any effect in any order! I tested it myself. I wanted something obvious, so I picked a snare and put a nasty bit-crusher on it in offline process (OLP from now on). I then added a delay in OLP. That way, I know that I'm hearing bit-crushed delays. Then, went to Offline Process History, and disabled the bitcrusher (which is shown before the delay). The result? A snare with delays unaffected by bitcrushing. IK wondered how this was possible , since it seemed the bit-crushed signal was the only thing feeding the delay. I spoke th Greg Ondo from Steinberg who told me that when you disable a process from inside the OLP History box, the audio is then quickly re-bounced through the chain, step by step to give you the "bypassed" state you are hearing.

The moral is, you can save lots of RAM and CPU by making semi-permanent bounces of the entire file (or just small pieces if you wish, such as applying a Gain Trim only to ridiculously out of whack transients) with as many effects as you want, and they are then able to bypass/deactivate in any order you wish. And, your original file is untouched, so if you hate what you have done in the end, you can just bring back your original in its correct location!! Very Cool.

Now that I have don a little to help (hopefully), I will make a new post below full of questions that should drive you crazy. But, I have done a lot of work on my own, including tests and screen shots. Hopefully if you see what I'm seeing, my questions will make more sense. So, see below....

[Compyfox]

I get 0VU OR -9dBFS, but 0VU should not equal -2.7 dBFS in any case as I have read this monstrosity of a post.

Just one question:

Does the kickdrum even FEATURE enough lowend content to strongly respond to the VU?

Very clicky and lowend lacking kicks would of course not make any sense to pull them up to 0VU, which then results in -2,5dBFS peak. Again, either -9dBFS peak or 0VU - you decide what is bass intensive and what is not.


If you could provide me a project file (just the percussion section would suffice, maybe even a bass) through PM, I could take a closer look and show you what's up and how to handle things.

Usually I don't do this, but maybe if I can show you how I work with a simple project file, then everything will be more clear.

[MyKill]

Alright, this one's a doozey, so buckle up!

Level in your signal so that transient intensive material (i.e. snare) doesn't exceel -9dBFS. If you have bass intensive material (like kick and bass), use a VU calibrated to -18dBFS (the crossover point from Green to Yellow, and apparently an international standard in terms of reference levels). Then level in the signal to either hover around -18dB RMS or 0VU (which is the same btw).
First gain stage done.
Now you can easily mix to your hearts content, but don't try to exceed -3dBFS on the summing bus.

I use VUMT set to -18db in all channel to set up the gain according to the rules described by Compyfox, with the Cubase channel faders set to default. VUMT is great for that, but there are other utilities one could use.

are you saying keep all your individual "TRACKS" (kick, snare, guitar) @ -18 average RMS, or were you refering to the Bus "tracks" that should be that level, then leveled by ear and keeping an eye on peak levels?

I think he meant channel individual.
Though keep in mind, a Kick is more bass intensive than a transient heavy Snare. So at 0VU/-18dB RMS, a kick would give the right readout, but a snare (due to it's lack of lowend for the short transient it's measured) it might only show a fraction of the signal strength.

Bear with me guys, we're almost there. The VU stuff in new territory. Which Satson am I monitoring this on then? If I'm trying to keep my -18dB average RMS for EACH channel, are you saying that is the reading for each soloed channel when viewed on the VU meter inserted on the Master Stereo Bus?

Ideally, yes. Average signal strength at -18dB / 0VU, peak (on a digital meter) can exceed up to 12dB. The faders need to be at unity for this.


Which is why you have VU's on the individual channels:
Bass intensive material should hover around 0VU/-18dB RMS
Transient intensive material should go up to -9dBFS peak maximum

Again, channel fader at unity.


The sum of you signals should ideally also hover between +/- 1VU (around the -18dB RMS mark), or up to -3dBFS peak as absolute maximum. Don't touch the master fader (leave at 0dB = unity), use your channel faders instead to create a mix (sum) that doesn't exceed these values.....

We're talking about -18dB RMS, and -9dBFS digital peak at maximum on a per channel basis - showing on the meter(s). The faders aren't touched at this point. And with the approach of using a reference level, there is even no need to do so, and you'll never exceed the 0dB ceiling limit of DAC's (you won't get any clipping).

If bass intensive material should hover around 0VU, what dBFS am I shooting for?

Bass intensive material at 0VU would usually never exceed -9dBFS peak.
Really:
Focus while leveling in on the specific channels ONLY(!), do not compensate the output of them with the channel fader. Unless you're mixing.

You can use whatever tool to get to the desired level. Satson has a built in gain boost/trim knob. I tend to go the following route in Cubase:

Signal -> Cubase's own Gain knob (Prefilter) -> VU -> whatever plugins I need -> Pan/Fader -> Summing Bus

The Summing bus itself either uses Cubase's internal metering tools (Control Room in Cubase 7), or I use another VU just in case as first insert. However I feel like.

So...
I level in the signal with the VU's on each individual channel first.
I then mix all signals to taste.
I try to shoot for 0 VU on the summing bus

Once you get the hang of it all, it's a fairly simple process.

OK. So get the individual channels to 0VU on the Stereo Buss VU insert.

Just one question:

Does the kickdrum even FEATURE enough lowend content to strongly respond to the VU?

Very clicky and lowend lacking kicks would of course not make any sense to pull them up to 0VU, which then results in -2,5dBFS peak. Again, either -9dBFS peak or 0VU - you decide what is bass intensive and what is not.

Here is the Kick as seen through SPAN with nothing done to it (no gain, no inserts)



Here are my tests with a 1 kHz sine wave at -18 dBFS on the kick channel. I did it Post Panner and Post Fader to make sure I knew what I was looking at:




Seems the "Post-Panner" position only affects the channel dBFS reading and does not affect the VU on channel or Stereo Bus

Now, the Kick, just as it comes with no gain adjustments, Post Fader and Post Panner:




Again, Post Panner setting on the Mixer only changes the Channel dBFS reading and everything else stays the same

Now, to get my Kick to read 0VU on the Stereo Bus VU, I must crank the gain up +7.5 until I'm getting a -0.3 dBFS reading on channel and Master faders. The Master VU is right, but the channel VUs are at +3 VU and dNFS is -0.3:


But if I use my CHANNEL VU to get to 0VU, I'm at -7VU on the Master:



So, if I can just get this right, I can gain stage properly fr the rest of the chain. I've read almost every post on KVR and GearSluts that even mentions gain staging, so I (think) I get the theory and why it is a good Idea to sent modeled plugins an optimum signal.

BUT, if I'm trying to get 0VU on my Bus VU by cranking Channel Gain, I'g getting between -3.5 and -0.3 dBFS at the channel level, which is too hot to send to my NI Vintage Compressors or any other modeled gear.

Perhaps there is simply 1 piece of this puzzle I'm missing or not understanding correctly.
Like, if all my channels are "leveled" to read 0VU on the Master BussVU while all faders are at Unity, is that also supposed to mean that with all tracks playing at unity I would be clipping the Master dBFS like crazy?

It takes driving the sh!t out of individual channels (sometimes past +4VU on the channel VU) to reach 0VU on the master, so don't I STILL have a signal too hot to send to emulations?

And FINALLY

I think people are making nuclear science out of gain staging and the more complex the explanation - the more confusion.

It is actually so simple: just keep the volume of all the tracks in the mix around, but not beyond, -18dB average RMS, and use the VU meter for that. It's that simple. Also, keep the same volume between the plugins. That's it. I use Satson CM for that. I love that plugin so much. Except the stupid reflections on its "screen"... but that's not relevant for this thread...

I keep my tracks at around -18dB average RMS and usually finish up peaking at about -14dB average RMS on the master. Usually I get to around -3dB dBFS peak on the master channel this way.

First, thank you for turning me on the the Satson. I love it's saturation sound. Respect.
Also, I know that no one owes anyone anything on here, so at the risk of sounding like an a**hole, you were one of the first ones to say how complicated everyone is making it and how simple it really is. Then, disappeared from the conversation.

So, sir, if it is so easy and we are using the same DAW to try to get the same result, I believe I have proven I'm willing to run my own tests on the advice given and not just stand around with my head in my hands, so could you please enlighten this dumbsh*t (and any other's keeping an eye on this thread: 1,981 hit at last count) on this simple method you use? Please? And I don't mean in theory, I mean a simple, 5 minute stepped guide as to how you physically do what you described. Again, no disrespect, I'm just sarcastic by nature and I can't help it

All that said, thanks AGAIN to everyone posting advice. From the hits, I can see I'm not the only one who really wants to completly understand this.

ComfyFox, you are the f'n man

[aciddose]

The problem is that this is really rooted in a simple issue: people need to know what they're doing to find a solution which works in the particular situation they are working.

For some reason rather than sticking to the idea of "do what works in the particular case", people try to come up with all these fancy methods or procedures such as "gain staging".

Then you end up finding "corner cases" where your procedure doesn't work, and so you need to add more and more exceptions to your "simple, fits all" method until it becomes ridiculously complex and impossible to work with.

This is how things have become far more complex than they need to be.

All that is required is a basic understanding of the tools you're working with. There is no general rule that you can apply as a replacement for knowledge.

Gain-staging is not a production lever.

[Tricky-Loops]

This is how things have become far more complex than they need to be.

Glad that I'm not the only one who thinks so. I was about to quit making music because of this thread where everything is getting that complicated...

Furthermore I don't understand the tests with the 1 kHz Sine wave when the main part of the kick is below 400 Hz...

[Compyfox]

Alright, this one's a doozey, so buckle up!

I don't think we're in Kansas anymore.

Here is the Kick as seen through SPAN with nothing done to it (no gain, no inserts)

Okay let's analyze this. We have the most power at 100Hz and about 3kHz, while lacking all the mids. Since I don't know how this kick sounds, but the screenshot looking like it's a very clicky kick, I have to assume that it is more on the transient side of things rather than the bass intensive one. And the VU responds towards that (missing mids).

If you followed my... er... classes, what should happen?
Yes - -9dBFS peak maximum on the digital meter, and not 0VU / -18dB RMS on the VU/RMS meter.

Here are my tests with a 1 kHz sine wave at -18 dBFS on the kick channel. I did it Post Panner and Post Fader to make sure I knew what I was looking at:




Seems the "Post-Panner" position only affects the channel dBFS reading and does not affect the VU on channel or Stereo Bus

Let me get one thing straight:
The "Post Fader" and "Post Panner" settings are just for the digital meter of Cubase's mix console. It abides to the rules of the set pan law. But, a test with a Sine Wave will still show you somewhat correct values on "per channel".

Though on a sidenote: Cubase's internal sine wave generator can cause wrong readouts on meters. It at least happened on my end, don't know why, but it does. I'm using MOscillator for testing purposes. But the readouts are fine, so don't think about it.


Back on topic:
Important is what's happening on the summing bus. And here, the readout is correct.

Another thing to note:
Cubase Insert 1-6 -> Pre Pan/Fader
Cubase Insert 7-8 -> Post Pan/Fader

You understood that as well.

, the Kick, just as it comes with no gain adjustments, Post Fader and Post Panner:




Again, Post Panner setting on the Mixer only changes the Channel dBFS reading and everything else stays the same

From plain readings of the meter, I'd clock this in as a classic "transient heavy" signal. I'd not go higher than -9dBFS peak (digital meter). Ignore the VU in this case.




And I think, now comes the part that is confusing the hell out of you.

Now, to get my Kick to read 0VU on the Stereo Bus VU, I must crank the gain up +7.5 until I'm getting a -0.3 dBFS reading on channel and Master faders. The Master VU is right, but the channel VUs are at +3 VU and dNFS is -0.3:


But if I use my CHANNEL VU to get to 0VU, I'm at -7VU on the Master:

Let's analyze the pictures again.

In the "Kick @ 0VU on Stereo Bus" picture, the kick registers as 0VU on the summing bus (let's call it like that from now on, so that people know what's going on). But take a look at your individual channel.

Not only is the VU peak at +3 VU, the digital peak also exceeds goes near the 0dBFS limit. VUMT even shows a clipping warning (red LED, VUMT's yellow LED goes off at signals above -6dBFS, and goes into the reds above -0,2dBFS, see plugin settings), and Cubase's digital channel meter (peak meter) confirms a -0,3dBFS signal strength.

The second picture "Kick @ 0VU on Channel" actually shows an almost correct way of gain staging (per channel!). The VU shows 0 VU as maximum signal strength, but the maximum amplitude (strongest peak) of the signal is still at -3,5dBFS peak (Cubase), with a yellow warning LED in VUMT (again, signal above -6dBFS).

This gives me a red waving flag that this signal is clearly transient intensive and not bass intensive. So I'd use whatever available gain/trim knob to attenuate the signal to bring it down to -9dBFS. Which in turn would also result in an RMS / VU signal way below 0 VU. Which is correct in this case!


That brings me to the summing bus.
The "sum" of all signals should ideally not exceed 0VU on the VU of the summing bus.

So only focus on the channel individual VU's while leveling in. And while mixing normally, focus on the summing bus VU and peak meter.



Let's bring back the specs to our memory:

Channel - Leveling in:
0VU / -18dB RMS (bass intensive) or -9dBFS peak (transient intensive)

Summing Bus - Mixing:
ideally 0VU / -18dB RMS (sum!) and it should ideally not exceed -6dBFS or even -3dBFS peak. Depending on your private specs.

The shift due to the Pan Law doesn't matter (the behavior is correct).


Inherit that, and you understand how all of this is working.

All that said, thanks AGAIN to everyone posting advice. From the hits, I can see I'm not the only one who really wants to completly understand this.

CompyFox, you are the f'n man

Glad I could help.

Furthermore I don't understand the tests with the 1 kHz Sine wave when the main part of the kick is below 400 Hz...

In this case, it's to check if the meters are correct. And to understand what's happening during the routing of the signal (Pan Law).


I do hope however, this post with the picture analysis makes it finally clear, what I'm talking about. If not, I maybe have to invest some time in creating a video.





EDIT:
Changed some paragraphs cause I forgot that the "hold" meters in VUMT show the max values of the "mode" (i.e. VU/RMS levels in VU mode, max peak in PPM mode). I fixed this part for better understanding.

[MyKill]

...I was about to quit making music because of this thread..

LMAO For real, man, I know how you feel! If we didn't have the video deadline, I would have walked away from music recording about 2 days into this thread and finally learned how to code. ha ha.

I wanna know the why of the why of the why to the sub-atomic particles. Not for everyone, and surely frustrating

I do hope however, this post with the picture analysis makes it finally clear, what I'm talking about. If not, I maybe have to invest some time in creating a video.

EDIT:
Changed some paragraphs cause I forgot that the "hold" meters in VUMT show the max values of the "mode" (i.e. VU/RMS levels in VU mode, max peak in PPM mode). I fixed this part for better understanding.

Yeah, I forgot to mention I turned on the "hold peak" in VUMT

And yes, that clears it up.
It's over.
Its the decision making process of what its appropriate for the channel for the gain staging that i needed. At first, I just thought it was a kick, its bass heavy, it gets leveled with a VU. Got it now. Thank you, sincerely.

As for the final product, if anyone cares (I wouldn't), the video MUST be up by Halloween, so I'l post a link to it here when it happens. Then everyone can tell me how much of a steaming sh!t pile the mix is & how I obviously learned nothing from this ulcer inducing thread.

[Compyfox]

Its the decision making process of what its appropriate for the channel for the gain staging that i needed. At first, I just thought it was a kick, its bass heavy, it gets leveled with a VU. Got it now. Thank you, sincerely.

Listen to the signal, watch your meters, then decide.
Simple process.

As for the final product, if anyone cares (I wouldn't), the video MUST be up by Halloween, so I'l post a link to it here when it happens. Then everyone can tell me how much of a steaming sh!t pile the mix is & how I obviously learned nothing from this ulcer inducing thread.

I'm curious for sure. Unless you're like "ah funk it, let's send a PM with a demo project to see if I did it right".

But you seem to have understood it. So... yeah.




If anyone else is lost, just continue this thread.

[MyKill]

One final (don't hold me to that) question.

All right fellas, one last question (seriously this time)

Listen to the signal, watch your meters, then decide.

So obviously, I've proven I can not be trusted. I have one more question, but it's pretty easy. I think.

It has to do with the pan law we were discussing.
So, say my pan law is -3.

Cubase has the option to view the mixer:
-Input
-Post Fader
-Post Panner

So if I "leveled" my snare to -9 dBFS while viewing the mixer Post-PANNER, the actual signal running through the inserts would be -6 dBFS. It's only the Pan Law that is dipping the level by 3 dB once it goes through the Panner.

So my question is, do I need to "level" my transient material to ~ -9dBFS while viewing the mixer in "Input" or "Post Fader" mode? Then switch to Pot Panner to mix, where the signal would then read -12 dBFS?

I would assume so, because you want to send the -9 signal through the inserts, then if you want to get your channel peak back up, you could always add a Gain plug of some sort after all your inserts. But, I thought you didn't want the "artificial" boost after your plugins.

This is the only question I could think of after 2 days of mixing with your suggestions, so I think this is really the end.

[aciddose]

Considering the wide dynamic range of most material 3db is nothing of concern.

You want to run everything at approximate levels, not exact. If you tried to come up with a reasonable level to use and that had to be exact, either it would be impossible or the result would end up being terribly mangled, compressed, whatever.

You need to keep in mind the difference between measurements of an average or window like RMS vs. peak levels and you need to think about this when you're taking any advice about which levels to use.

My input regarding peak levels is that in order to be accurate plugins like limiters, followers, compressors and so on are going to expect a signal approximately at 0db. The threshold then will make sense if you set it to -10db, you'll be removing 10db of dynamic range.

If you run a signal into a limiter such as this at -18db, a threshold of -10db won't do anything of course.

Only after the limiter or other process will the settings make sense. They're in reference only to the output if the input is not trimmed to align them.

Looking at this issue you should realize that "gain-staging" doesn't make sense as a specific process or set of strict rules to follow. Instead it's just something you need to be aware of - that the signal level can be adjusted to suit your needs and get the results you want from the processors/plugins you use. I never concern myself with such things because they occur to me naturally and intuitively. I've already learned how to deal with these situations and all the factors at play.

I think the popularity of this topic these days is a result of the horrible complexity people create in their projects. Before software it would have been rare to see a project assembled with 100s of processors and channels many of which in series.

Using only a few inserts/sends in a complete project doesn't require much thinking about levels beyond setting the input for each channel on the console and the i/o levels for sends. A chain of inserts such as the common eq + compressor channel strip combination are adjusted as required while maintaining roughly 0db levels for each channel pre-fader and pre-panner.

Now, regarding what you're asking about panning:

we have:
inputs -> insert chain -> channel strip
channel strip -> sends buses -> send effects
all channels faders/panners -> master

Master gets a few inputs. In most cases you'd want to get back up to your 0db level before any master inserts chain by using the master input gain.

You can also correct for the -3db loss or otherwise the same way, since all inputs to the master channel should have passed through identical panners.

The master panner loss then you can only control by adjusting the master fader.

Myself, I build panners where the centered level is 0db while a hard-panned level is +3db which avoids this issue. When you pan a channel you can turn down the fader for the channel as required, although since 3db is such a small difference it should rarely be of concern.

In software this matters only because the software can print out the value of the fader.

In hardware you don't notice this, you just automatically/instinctively adjust the input gains to compensate and the levels you get out are then at 0db.

Actually perhaps the issue is the ignorance of / missing feature for channel input gains?

[MyKill]

Considering the wide dynamic range of most material 3db is nothing of concern.

OK, good info

You need to keep in mind the difference between measurements of an average or window like RMS vs. peak levels and you need to think about this when you're taking any advice about which levels to use.....

I'm not sure where you came in on this thread, but we got past that 2 pages ago. Thats why I'm using VUMT and Satson CM

The master panner loss then you can only control by adjusting the master fader.

I understand that; I think you're misunderstanding what I'm asking

Myself, I build panners where the centered level is 0db while a hard-panned level is +3db which avoids this issue. When you pan a channel you can turn down the fader for the channel as required, although since 3db is such a small difference it should rarely be of concern.

Right, the definition of -3dB Pan Law, right?

Actually perhaps the issue is the ignorance of / missing feature for channel input gains?

No. Again, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm asking. The consensus is, according to most "gain staging" and "proper level" forums I'v read, this one included, is that the less transient, bass heavier material should be close to 0VU while the transient intensive material should be ~ -9 dBFS peak (for many reasons, but mainly in our discussion so that hardware emulations work properly since they were most likely "modeled" using a 0VU reference signal.)

What I'm asking is more specific an less about theory.
I'm using a -3 dB Pan Law.
My transient peaks need to be around -9dBFS peak.
My snare, a mono channel, was recorded hot and has a pretty consistent peak value of ~ -2 dBFS.
I need it to peak around -9.
I can use my channel Input Gain knob that is Pre-Inserts, EQ, Fader, Panner to get the loudest snare to -9 dBFS.

BUT...
IF im viewing the Cubase mixer as Post Panner and I see -9, the real peak of the track would be -6 since pan law is in effect. Meaning the level actually being sent to my Vintage Compressor emulations is -6, not -9.

IF I view my Cubase mixer as "Input" or "Pre-Fader", I would see that the peak is -6 since I'm not viewing the signal after it passes through the Panner.

So, the questions are,

1) should I set my -9 peak levels (or whatever peak level I want) while viewing "Input" or "Pre-Fader" so I can see the true peak value that is being sent through my plug in chain?

If that answer is yes, that means when I turn the mixer back to "Post Panner", that same channel will read a peak value of -12. So if I wanted my peak to actually be -9 on that channel, I could either push the fader up past unity OR add a gain plug in at the end of the channel insert chain and add 3dB to get it back to -9.

2) is that kind of "artificial" gain going to have any negative effects on sound quality?

If that answer is yes, then should I just set the signal to -9 while viewing the mixer "Post Panner" ? That way, I'm only seeing -9 even though the input signal being sent to inserts is -6.

Really, the question is: DOES IT MATTER WHICH WAY I DO IT?


I know the "use your ears" guys stopped reading long ago, so I am asking a very anal-retentive question about the math behind the DSP and what is the best level to send my emulations

[metamorphosis]

First, thank you for turning me on the the Satson. I love it's saturation sound. Respect.

You can also use Sonalksis's FreeG:
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia ... reeG.shtml

Has a great meter.

[aciddose]

Everything "matters" and there are a lot of ways to set levels. You have your input levels for the channels, and you have the fader levels. For metering obviously you have pre/post and the panner may be changing the level. 0db at center position isn't a strict rule for a panner, no. Some panners output -3db at center position as you're complaining about, while others (such as mine) output 0db at center position and apply +3db boost to hard pans.

We're talking about the levels you're seeing on the master bus here though, as they're output from a channel and placed on the bus, before they're into the master channel and it's input gain.

Why do you care at all what the level is at this point? You'd have to take into account where the signal is headed such as the master channel. Otherwise the level at this point is completely meaningless.

You need to spend more time looking at how you break the system down into component parts. Stop thinking in terms of general rules and start thinking about what you need to do to achieve your goals, whatever they may be. A general rule may be fine for someone clueless who wants to try to avoid running head-first into trouble, but why run blind-folded in the first place?