Initiative to help the less fortunate obtain legit software and help spread the love. Seriously.

[Meffy]

if you start granting wishes, you're going to have to wear hammer pants.

how about instead, do some reviews on some freeware and work to publicise its merits and useability instead of singing the praises of expensive commercialware?

The two aren't mutually exclusive. By all means promote your software and other freeware makers' stuff.

But that's a separate matter, not the topic of this thread. Why not start a thread of your own on raising awareness of the need for freeware reviews and publicity?

[FarleyCZ]

Now I wish I was developer to be able to participate somehow. This comunity is great, everyone should think about it. If I make the soundbank I'm constantly thinking of last few weeks, this iniciative will have first few copies!

[DreamTrance]

Hi, I still use Cubase 4 LE, gently given by a kvr member (he even send it to me from USA to Brazil)!

So good for you . I would like to have " Cubase Elements 6 " then i would try to upgrade it to Cubase 6 by myself with collecting money step by step. Because i dont want to use illegal Cubase 5 !

[ntom]

You say that, but who says your presets would suck - some may love them, some hate them - everyone has an opinion and there are as many lovers are there are haters - it's all relative. Regardless, receiving 5 presets from 10 people gives me 50 presets to add to a product - which makes it more attractive to purchase. Surely someone has a few minutes to create 5 presets - plus, it's fun to do.

Mike

I suppose my response to this is a bit behind the times. I go to bed early for work, see? And apparently during the time I am asleep and at work these kind of threads just take off so I wind up 4-5 pages behind. ANYWAYS
Who's to say I actually do sound design? 95% of the time my sounds came from presets...I might make a few adjustments to the cutoff, resonance, ADSR, and LFO, and maybe even the wave form, but most of the adjustments are minor and are not far away from the original preset. About the most sound design I did was in my most recent song I have this gritty dirty bass line going, but most of the grit and dirt actually came from effect plugins (2 different types of distortion and some mild clipping) the actually sound came from a preset inside "BladeRunner's Bank for Synth1" using his patch "Deep Smooth Bass" and adjusting cutoff, resonance, ADSR, and the second oscillator.

[BERFAB]

A noble gesture indeed - and I don't want to downplay it. But do you really think there are people who are so strapped for cash they have no other choice than using a pirated version of their host, but still own a computer and audio I/O that together cost more than 1000$ ? I don't think so. I think using pirated version is a choice, a very convenient one.

You don't absolutely need to have Cubase or Pro-tools to make music. Reaper's discounted license is 60$ only. Now explain to me how someone who can afford a computer and internet connection, can't afford 60$ for Reaper.

Gotta go with Big Tick and others on this thread.

First, let me say big ups to ttoz. He and others here definitely have their hearts in the right place.

That said, here are a few thoughts that passed through my noggin while reading this thread:

1. As noted, there are many freeware and low cost options for EVERYTHING including DAWS. If you count academic discounts that are almost universally available for everything, there are plenty of options already available for just about any price point. For high schoolers I meet with an interest, I'll always hand them the latest copy of Computer Music to get them started. If you really want it, it's out there.

2. As 'Tick and others have pointed out, we are not REALLY talking about people living in a corrugated shack with a dirt floor and no electricity on the Bayou. At a minimum, you've got some basics that cost much more than any quality paid software. And, as previously pointed out, if you've got passion enough to monkey together a used PC from spare parts in order to follow your dream, chances are you can make do with the (usually excellent) freebies and Magware that's out there to realize your sonic vision, at least when you're starting out.

3. Any KVR member who's ever run a business can relate to the phenomenon of deadbeat clients who "just don't have the cash right now." However, if you told them that you have a Mercedes in the lot for them for that amount of cash, they will find a way to get the money, and get it to you quick. Point being, it comes down to allocation of resources and priorities. If this is what you want to do, you will do it. And the barrier to entry, because of free and low cost alternatives, to follow THIS passion, is pretty low.

As an alternative, I think the suggestion of a program to reward/encourage struggling DEVS who have hit hard times as a result of warez is a better way to go. I think I speak for a lot of folks here when I say that the small devs really are the unsung heroes of our little corner of the world. It's a very high risk/reward equation that they try to overcome, and we are generally the beneficiaries of their great ideas realized as software.

Cheers
-B

[aciddose]

A noble gesture indeed - and I don't want to downplay it. But do you really think there are people who are so strapped for cash they have no other choice than using a pirated version of their host, but still own a computer and audio I/O that together cost more than 1000$ ? I don't think so. I think using pirated version is a choice, a very convenient one.

You don't absolutely need to have Cubase or Pro-tools to make music. Reaper's discounted license is 60$ only. Now explain to me how someone who can afford a computer and internet connection, can't afford 60$ for Reaper.

spend some time in a country like thailand or guatemala and you'll figure that out eventually

hint: there are places you can get equipment for nothing, but your typical monthly paycheck is about $100-$200 which barely will cover rent unless you room with several other people.

for these sorts of people who can barely afford their own food and housing costs, $60 is a huge amount.

copyright violation is rampant in these countries for a reason. it costs them nothing, it costs you nothing, and they receive a huge benefit.

explain to me how you can afford what you afford while demanding these sorts of people owe you?

the real problem isn't these sorts of people. the real problem is greed - producers who make huge incomes who use warez. yes, they exist.

there is also a huge amount of greed associated with the owners of the copyrights which are being violated. in many cases it's hard to justify the amount they demand - generally the excuse is that in a free market they have the right to demand anything they want and if it's too much, people shouldn't use the product.

as we all know, it doesn't work like that. the actual cost of a copy is handled usually by the person who provides the copy. it's very close to zero. in actuality, the fault lies with the developer who made an investment under the assumption they would reap a certain reward for their efforts. if you take such speculative risks, you're going to go off the cliff in a lot of cases.

that's the reality of the modern IP business, regardless of what sort of IP you're dealing in.

greed can not be fixed. it's in our nature.

[BERFAB]

for these sorts of people who can barely afford their own food and housing costs, $60 is a huge amount.

copyright violation is rampant in these countries for a reason. it costs them nothing, it costs you nothing, and they receive a huge benefit.

explain to me how you can afford what you afford while demanding these sorts of people owe you?

For the truly poor that you describe, I think software (free or otherwise) is a long way down on the list of priorities for basic survival. In that case, frankly, the LAST thing I would like to contribute is software. I would rather (and do, like many here) give a more meaningful contribution to ensure sustenance.

-B

[Meffy]

we are not REALLY talking about people living in a corrugated shack with a dirt floor and no electricity on the Bayou.

Blast! There goes my chance at a free Nuendo license. *kicks pet alligator out of frustration*

[aciddose]

of course.

that is why i say though, the real issue isn't those people. if warez works for them, that's great. i hope it is always available to those who couldn't afford the software through any other means. it doesn't cost the authors anything, they don't "lose" a potential sale. more people on earth get to have access to these things and the world becomes a better place.

the real problem is greed. the only solution for that is to implement something like a dongle. the result is that you piss off a lot of your customers, you lose some sales to people who were on the fence. you force the greedy to pay up, which is good from a i don't know, lawful-evil perspective. what makes it evil is that you're forcing people to do something, which while it may be in line with justice when they can afford to do it isn't really beneficial to those who then can't acquire your software at all, ever.

that is similar to the moral in a lot of the recent ordinary people superhero movies. respecting justice is one thing, but where do you draw the line? when does the harm you cause in seeking justice find an equal counter-balance against the possible benefits of what you might perceive as "injustice"?

[Big Tick]

spend some time in a country like thailand or guatemala and you'll figure that out eventually

Indeed. But I'm convinced that "these sort of people", as you put it, are a very small minority among warez users. I am convinced that the majority consists of people who could afford to buy it, but who chose differently - it's a matter of priorities, and after all, why blame them ? it's there, it's convenient, why would they sacrifice a night out, a few drinks, ... in order to do the right thing ? Why have a new mixer *or* a bunch of plugins, when you can have a new mixer *and* a bunch of (pirated) plugins ?

What really pisses me off is people selling warez cds. You know, craigslist ads, "50$ for 2 dvd's full of plugins". I swear that one day, one of these guys will be found, beat up to a pulp.

[aciddose]

i think most of the users are actually not "lost sales". the common number reported is 30% of "lost" sales due to warez. this can be measured by implementing a dongle or copy protection on an existing software product without other changes.

(for example, the way half-life or starcraft require[s/d] a valid license to play online. if this were implemented after sales settled off after the initial ripples, you could measure the difference in sales afterward.)

you can find a huge number of cases not only in the audio-software niche but in just about every type of IP. the number of "greedy" users may actually be higher than 30% because you have to factor in the changes in the demographics of your users when you implement a copy-protection measure and the effect that has by eliminating some sales which would have otherwise occurred without the protection.

it's likely less than half even though i'm sure many factors influence this including price vs. perceived value and others.

remember that we're talking that you'd be selling at 70%. the 30% is just the number of real users who would have purchased the product if the warez were not available in the format they wanted it.

this doesn't say anything about the number of actual warez users. we can estimate based upon the number of downloads from sites like megaupload or through the torrent networks. signs here point not just to the number of "greedy" users being less than half, but rather than this number is infinitesimally small.

i find that most of the warez users i know have low incomes, are students without credit (so have very limited ability to pay online) or pay their bills on a month-to-month basis and treat non-essentials like audio software toys exactly as you'd expect.

the people who are true "greedy" users are those for whom the software is not a non-essential, but rather an essential.

so what you ought to be questioning when you look at games copyright violation or audio software or whichever class of IP you like is exactly how essential is your product and what are the demographics for the customers to whom your product is essential.

personally, when i see a movie or something that i really want i just buy the thing. if i don't want to waste the cash (which is usually how i feel) i simply do not buy it or attempt to get it at all anymore. i have used warez, and with regard to movies more recently services like netflix have become extremely useful (for when i'm on the fence about a purchase).

these have encouraged me to buy... nothing. actually i've cancelled my netflix account a couple months ago (for the second time) after i went a couple months never using it at all, just browsing through the listings looking for something i'd like to watch and eventually giving up.

so this is your major concern - build a product which is desirable and essential to a certain demographic. that is how you make sales.

if the product is desirable but extremely non-essential (a tb-303 emulation) the warez rate will also be extreme.

if the product is undesirable but extremely essential (cardiograph software) the warez rate will be extremely low.

i should also mention this: if the price is optimized based upon the economics involved, no matter how much warez exists for your product the lost sales due to "greedy" warez users seems to remain very close to 30% of sales. higher rates seem to be associated with higher prices or trends.

(waves audio plugin warez and NI warez rates are much higher than <insert rarely mentioned plugin here>)

[DuX]

Great points aciddose and great topic ttoz. My opinion is that everything money related has more to do with the society in general, though. Who can't afford steal, and who can afford steal, too. It's a society where everybody steals from someone, legally or illegally. It's a noble intention, but there's little use for it, unless something globally changes, and there wouldn't be a need for such noble causes and donations.

I? I'm not extremely poor, but I manage. 100$ means something to me. From my perspective, everything I buy must be really good. So when one buys Reaper finally, there's not much you can spend your money on, as it comes with a bunch of very usable plugins, unlike the hosts that cost a few times more. In my opinion, the plugins market is saturated with cra*. In most instances bloated, badly programmed, and over-advertised cra*. I can honestly *almost* count on the fingers of one hand the developers that are worth to spend your hard earned money on: PSP, Voxengo, D16, Valhalla DSP, DMG Audio, Studio Devil, Fabfilter, Cytomic, Camel Audio, and U-He. Yeah -that's two hands. If you manage to get all of their plugins, you have everything you need regarding VST and even VSTi to make a top of the line ITB production. Regarding VSTi, there's ShortCircuit sampler which is still absolutely stunning [now] freeware sampler, and you have tons of great free VSTis. People fail to understand that digital processing is far more similar between the plugins than it used to be with hardware. It really doesn't matter if you use a "high end" Waves EQ or Satson freeware EQ when you *know* what you're doing. When you're an unexperienced rookie you can fall for ads easily, thinking more money means better sound - wrong. Better sound is only in your head, your knowledge and expertise.

Signing off and covering my head. Cheers!

[Richard_Synapse]

i think most of the users are actually not "lost sales". the common number reported is 30% of "lost" sales due to warez. this can be measured by implementing a dongle or copy protection on an existing software product without other changes.

Very interesting post aciddose...the number seems very plausible too.

I'd still like to involve the other 70% though. Sure, they might have no money, but they certainly have skills. A beginner with good english skills could e.g. proofread a manual or help writing parts of it, in exchange for a license. More advanced users could make a short demo MP3 etc. So there's many options, that really make stealing pointless.

Richard

[Zombie Queen]

ppl dont use warez cos they are poor

Exactly. People use warez because they are rich, can afford electricity and appliances, internet.. I'm sorry, but this is all a pile of moon beans... If you want to help poor people, you'd be better off turning your time and energy elsewhere. E.g. donate Unicef.

[JoeCat]

Not directed at anyone in particular, but:

Jeez - the OP (ttoz) is trying to organize a charity, and suddenly it's 7 pages of sometimes caustic rhetoric. There's healthy debate, and then there's a need to pontificate on everything (I realize the irony of posting this).

Constructive criticism aside, if you're just going to trash the OP's idea, wouldn't it be more polite to say a few words ("I don't think this will fly") etc., then to muddy the whole thread with pages of opinion? It's unhealthy - we (and I've been guilty of it myself), troll FB, forums, find things with disagree with, then are compelled to "set them straight". It's a 21st century illness...

Bottom line: there are some less-fortunate musicians here - decent people for whom music provides an enormous creative outlet and helps give their lives purpose. Whether they'd be tempted by warez or not, ttoz would like a formal way to help them out through KVR, and ensure developers (who, by and large are NOT greedy) receive compensation for their efforts. That would be achieved by the charitable donations of those of us who are more fortunate. Ironically, this is exactly what half the world seems to be protesting their governments do by force.

In his original post, ttoz asked for help. IMHO, If you're not interested, maybe state so politely for the record, then move on?

Lord - 90% of the content on social media consists of people telling someone "you're wrong". What happened to supporting each other?