Initiative to help the less fortunate obtain legit software and help spread the love. Seriously.

[DuX]

It makes my heart tremble when I become aware of the fact that there are people who gives a fuc* about it. I have no doubts there are many people like that on KvR. I never had any doubts, since 199-something when I joined. d= =b

This community just rocks!

One thing that crossed my mind - group buys! We can thank KVR for that. I love the group buys.

[TommyBear]

i think most of the users are actually not "lost sales". the common number reported is 30% of "lost" sales due to warez. this can be measured by implementing a dongle or copy protection on an existing software product without other changes.

Very interesting post aciddose...the number seems very plausible too.

I'd still like to involve the other 70% though. Sure, they might have no money, but they certainly have skills. A beginner with good english skills could e.g. proofread a manual or help writing parts of it, in exchange for a license. More advanced users could make a short demo MP3 etc. So there's many options, that really make stealing pointless.

Richard

Quite an interesting idea with the translations actually. But I wonder how many languages the developers are interested in And, after all, if a manual is 100 pages long one may think twice. But well, from what I remember from my experience, translating was like 2 pages per hour (maybe a bit less with specialised issues), so it can be a decent job to do and probably worth it.

And aciddose - very interesting points!

Ohhhh, after writing all of this I realised that you haven't said anything about TRANSLATING the manual Just proofreading and writing it. The "english skills" mislead me, well... Good ideas anyway

[aciddose]

more money can mean better sound.

i find if i stay up for ~24 hours music sounds better.

...also happens if i'm intoxicated.

i think though the best way to "spread the love" would be to contribute to open source projects and free software to make these equal or better (assuming they're not already) than commercial products.

an interesting thing to note about copyright violators and greed though is, actually, really interesting if you think about it.

i would open source 100% of my software immediately, right now if i was certain people wouldn't violate the license.

(for example, steal the source-code, ignore the license and implement it in their own commercial software without contributing back to the project.)

why? my only concern would be for example that if i wanted to have any exclusive right that those would be lost because they would be not enforceable without using secrecy.

let's say i want to provide my plugins for sale and limit the distribution of binaries to myself exclusive. anybody willing to download a compiler and the source-code could compile it themselves and use it for free. people could read and learn from the source and while obeying the terms of the license even include it in their own projects.

the problem is i think one of greed also, but this is a variation on greed which isn't often considered. it's the desire for self-preservation. "it's either you or me." this is the same greed which bothers anyone who is a victim of copyright violation.

the difference is only the "greedy violators" issue. i don't mind the idea of people compiling their own binaries, as long as they don't make this too easy by distributing them - that would compete against my commercial product directly. (my own product competing against itself.)

with terms like in the gpl if someone wanted to download the source, add a custom feature like fifteen oscillators and give that source to their friends that would be great! in return the changes or additions they made would become available back to me under the same terms and thank god, people would finally stop bothering me about that fifteenth oscillator.

(which is not a technical or effort based issue, it's just one where i don't like the idea. specifically, i'm joking about a third oscillator in xhip. i designed it with two for a reason! i did do a version with a third oscillator and it could be fifteen really, it only took a half hour to change things a little to implement it. i didn't like it and changed it back though of course even though some minimoog-like timbres are sort of cool. use a minimoog-like synth for that, dern it. so i don't mind if someone else wants to do that. i just don't want to maintain a version with that feature that i specifically don't want in my design. xmod, sync, extra cpu power, ringmod, routing, lots of issues associated with it that are "not pretty/elegant".)

people having that freedom would be great. if you're willing to put in the effort to run a compiler and you don't want a nice installer and everything as in the commercial version, by all means do that! i also wish i could in some way implement a "student" version or something similar where you could acquire a full license for free assuming you really wouldn't otherwise make a purchase.

the problem is when someone receives an unfair benefit from my efforts while causing an unfair detriment to me. if someone were to take the source, make some modifications and additions and then start selling this as their own product in competition with mine it would move at least some sales from my product to theirs. they would benefit from my efforts, and i would suffer.

while this is still greed, this is different than the greed associated with warez users who do not represent would-be sales. in one case real harm is done to the author, and in the other the only result is "unfair" benefit, but there is no harm!

so this is an important distinction to take into account. i don't believe everyone should sacrifice in order to benefit others, although in some cases that is a noble course. when you benefit others without sacrifice however i think you must be truly evil to feel entitled to more with the consequence of eliminating that benefit if your entitlements are not for-filled.

(example: your current income is 250k per year and you'd like to make it 500k per year by taking away the ability of poor people to access your software. this is an example of evil.)

[aciddose]

I've always thought that piracy isn't just about money. It's also about rights/privileges.
If you've not bought the software, you've got no right to enjoy it, hate it, make experiences with it, have it excite you, or make it a part of your arsenal in any shape or form.

so it gives you the right to bring harm to others and you feel this is fair justice?

fair justice in the rest of the world involves two prerequisites for a correction to be applied by force: both unfair advantage and unfair disadvantage. it's likely that unfair disadvantage will be corrected, but unfair advantage alone is rarely corrected for.

in terms of copyright it's standard for the courts in the united states to find for the plaintiff for a violation without requiring any evidence for damages having occurred. that is because it's defined that way in the law.

if you wanted to sue a group of people for dancing privately while listening to music over the radio however based upon the fact that they paid nothing to hear the music and yet received the benefit of enjoying themselves while listening to it i would have a hard time being convinced you'd stand any chance of winning.

like i said, it's an important distinction to make and this is an example of evil.

[Meffy]

aciddose, this is getting WAY off topic. Theo is talking about doing something personal and direct to help people, not instituting a system of oppressive domination. How about leaving that for another thread and letting this one stay on track?

[DuX]

But if you were donated by the state for your efforts, aciddose, you wouldn't have to think that way, don't you? That's where capitalism comes very wrong. It makes people become hungry wolves every single one of them. In Sweden, artsy people get help from the state in donations, so they can do their work without thinking about material benefits. A product made without any pressure from the "survival" mechanism is always better. Pressure makes people to make mistakes and conform to other "standards" that are not "standards" as such, they're merely means to generate more money, but the quality of the products suffers. One word- SPL. Two words - Waves. Three words - NI... everything driven by profit turns into cra*.

Again - great points aciddose. It's just that you can't see the benefits of Open Source in the greater picture. If there was no Open Source we would be so much more screwe* man...

[aciddose]

meffy, i guess it's a bit off-topic. i'm just trying to point out that i don't think donations in terms of helping "solve piracy" would do anything at all. it's also in moral terms not helping anything. perhaps if you feel guilty that the sale isn't being made and you want to support the companies or individuals involved.

you just have to keep in mind that you're then not making a donation to the poor. you're donating to software companies. you could just as easily buy more products yourself from needy developers to the exact same effect (if not far better).

as well, if the issue is that people who could otherwise pay aren't doing so, this type of initiative would have the opposite effect to that which was intended.

so i don't think it's fair at all to confuse the issue with poor/warez/etc.

donating to feed hungry people however or lowering the rent slightly on your basement suite i can definitely agree is a great idea and will almost certainly have the intended benefit.

dux - there are actually quite a lot of grants available in canada and you're right, assuming you could draw a 100% socialist salary this issue would disappear. unfortunately you'd just be shuffling the issue around and replacing copyright violation with corruption and fraud.

actually i'm involved in several open source projects

[DuX]

Excuse me, there's no corruption and fraud in a capitalist society? Good for you. I see more corruption and fraud in capitalism societies than it ever was in communist ones, but the truth is - there is corruption and fraud everywhere no matter the society. At least when you consider the societies we know of. People;s greed is infinite and unstoppable. I've experienced different societies and I should know about it. People are just more happy in general when they're not forced into this money greed, "profit is god" society. One should be happy with bear necessities, in my opinion, and that includes a DAW, and a decent palette of VST/VSTi plugins, so why not providing them with these somehow, anyhow?

Cheers!

p.s. I love Xhip. It's a somewhat of a secret weapon of mine. Thank you so much aciddose for making it. I mean it, man. It's quite special.

[aciddose]

i mean if you solved the copyright issues with socialism, just like any other socialist solution you'd just be solving one problem and several others would pop up elsewhere.

the current system has copyright violation and greed. socialism would have cheating (pretending to be very valuable without producing) and greed. you'd still have warez, just nobody would really care about that because solving it wouldn't help anyone.

sure, in the current system you have the "corruption" issue where you can insert copy protections which take away the ability of less fortunate people to gain access to benefits that otherwise have zero cost in return for raking some extra percentage of revenues from those who are actually just greedy.

no matter what we do it's just another variation of cra* as you say

buy from small developers! buy products that you like! don't follow trends and don't waste your money on things you don't want or need! do something that benefits the needy!

...but don't put up a fuss about warez.

[FarleyCZ]

Lord - 90% of the content on social media consists of people telling someone "you're wrong". What happened to supporting each other?

Way off topic, but sadly absolutely true. Wonder it too.

[bluedad]

I can just imagine theo's head exploding reading some of this stuff..way, way off topic.

[aciddose]

how is it off topic though? without valid goals for such an initiative why have the initiative?

i suppose you could have a raffle for software but this would just be like advertising for the products, or if they were secret it would make up just x number of sales.

it might seem like i go off topic when providing evidence for my objections, or are you saying objections are off topic?

i want anything that gets done to actually have a positive influence. i tried to point out that doing things the ways in which they've been discussed so far would actually have a negative net influence because it would cost everyone a bit more, move that money into the hands of a single person or corporation and create no actual benefit.

don't you see the benefits are already present with the warez?

unless like i said you want to help specific needy developers. in which case just buy their products. i suppose like i said, a raffle would work if you selected specific developers, but who does this selection? how is it ensured to be fair? it isn't.

[Meffy]

I can just imagine theo's head exploding reading some of this stuff..way, way off topic.

I think he was anticipating an HPC move when he started the thread, but I'd like to avoid that if possible.

[VitaminD]

meffy, i guess it's a bit off-topic. i'm just trying to point out that i don't think donations in terms of helping "solve piracy" would do anything at all. it's also in moral terms not helping anything. perhaps if you feel guilty that the sale isn't being made and you want to support the companies or individuals involved.

He already stated that he wants to help a few people.. not solve the global software piracy issue. I think he said that on the first or second page of this thread. please stay on topic and not be so political with everything that crosses your path! He just wants to help a few people and perhaps change a few minds.

[VitaminD]

I can just imagine theo's head exploding reading some of this stuff..way, way off topic.

I think he was anticipating an HPC move when he started the thread, but I'd like to avoid that if possible.

I avoid HPC so I hope it doesn't go there