What are your favorite non-Valhalla reverbs, and why?

[Sendy]

Crime of the Century

That is one gorgeous reverb, deep and airy without seemingly any mud at all. Mud is my major turn-off when it comes to delay effects. It just freaks me out to think about adding a layer of mud to my music - my mixes are touch and go enough as they are

[IIRs]

My reverb story centres on the main hall at my old school, the Manchester Grammar School. This is a posh private school... not posh like Eton or Harrow, but still much posher than the local comprehensive. The main hall was a grand affair (going by my 20 year old memories) with tall windows along one wall, and dark wood panels everywhere else, many of which were inscribed with the names of WW1 dead, along with "that old lie" about glory. At one end there was a balcony, while the other had a raised stage, and behind it were the metal tubes of a large, cathedral style pipe organ.

Actually the original old pipe organ wasn't working in my day, but during my first year it was replaced by a more modern free-standing (moveable) pipe organ, which I watched being custom-built on site... like I said, a private school with more money than most!

Anyway, my first memory of the acoustics were during that first year when the choir sang in the christmas concert: I was the cherubic-faced boy that sang the first verse of Once In Royal David's City on his own, before then leading the choir in procession down the middle of the hall and on to the stage. But hearing my pre-pubescent soprano voice come back to me glowing with the sound of that hall was a memorable experience that I am (obviously) unlikely to repeat!

Fast forward a couple of years. The hormones had kicked in, and my voice had broken. I was no longer a member of the choir, and (to the great disgust of my music teacher) my violin was gathering dust while I practised my new electric guitar instead. Under pressure from our form teacher to do something for assembly (which took place in the same big hall every morning) we decided to put together a rock band. I will gloss over the gory details of our cover version of Iron Maiden's Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner: even at the time I was aware that we sucked, and the acoustics of the hall did us no extra favours! But it was for this reason that I found myself later on that day alone and undisturbed playing my guitar in the hall while waiting for my lift home... at the time I had no reverb on my amp, and couldn't yet afford a reverb or delay pedal: this was the first time I had experienced anything other than Bone Dry, and I loved it!

I would be curious to hear the room again: I wonder if its actually like I remember it? Perhaps they would let me grab some impulses if I ask nicely...

[valhallasound]

Ah, from what I remember, shape 127, spread 0, size 27. bass decay 1.2x, hf decay 0.6x, hf crossover ~4khz, bass crossover ~500hz

OK, so the Shape/Spread taps will be audible, just spaced as tightly as possible. Most of the 480L Plate presets keep Shape at zero, which essentially disables the Shape/Spread taps, but there is one preset that a lot of people use that has fairly high Shape and Spread settings. Thanks for the info.

Sean Costello

[Shy]

No, even when the reverb decay time is set to around 800ms (very short for this algorithm), taps are not really noticeable with high diffusion even with extreme transients. Only when you have a combination of very high shape and spread values, they start to be audible (spread has less effect at lower shape values, at 0 it hardly effects at all). With lower decay time like 500ms, taps may be audible with very sharp transients, but still not very likely in a mix.
In short, the algorithm is flexible enough to cause noticeable taps with extreme settings, but also flexible enough to sound "smooth", "clear", "wide" and generally nice with a very wide range of settings.

People who tell you "it's a grainy reverb" either use some presets that do that (I never tried others' presets) or just don't know how to set it up, and they just mislead everyone and people repeat the myths on the internet.

Here are the same samples processed with the plate algorithm with 1 second decay and shape (and spread, though it doesn't really matter) at 0 and with shape and spread both at their middle values.

[valhallasound]

People who tell you "it's a grainy reverb" either use some presets that do that (I never tried others' presets) or just don't know how to set it up, and they just mislead everyone and people repeat the myths on the internet.

I'm basing things on the Lexicon PCM70 and LXP15 that I own, as well as my own realizations of some Lexicon algorithms. Last night, I fired up a 480L algorithm I had coded in 2009, and I definitely can get some grain with larger settings of Size. I guess I need to get used to the idea that Size is set fairly small for a lot of presets. Plus, the algorithm I was using was the one used for rooms and halls, and the plates will use the denser algorithm.

Here are the same samples processed with the plate algorithm with 1 second decay and shape (and spread, though it doesn't really matter) at 0 and with shape and spread both at their middle values.

Thanks for posting these - I'll check them out later today.

Sean Costello

[Shy]

Ah yes, with huge size settings, even the dense algorithm which is used for both plates and rooms in 480L gets sparse enough to be grainy no matter what. It's funny that even in real venues that are so large there are often very noticeable taps, except mostly in those designed to avoid it.

It brings me to a good point for this thread. Hardly any reverb algorithm can provide a truly huge sounding space (not some ridiculous, lame attempt) without being too "grainy" (or either with, actually). I think the best I've heard was from Yardstick 2492 (freaking awesome in general), though he doesn't like to call it a "reverberator" at all (anti raytracing, can't say I fully agree but definitely can't blame him). Incidentally, it also does the most amazing tiny space simulation.

I can't say I've been convinced by Bricasti M7 either, it just doesn't sound like a large enough space to me but who knows, maybe no one who posted samples knew how to set it up. If I could, I'd love to tweak it myself and hear how flexible it really is.

[mandolarian]

Crime of the Century

That is one gorgeous reverb, deep and airy without seemingly any mud at all. Mud is my major turn-off when it comes to delay effects. It just freaks me out to think about adding a layer of mud to my music - my mixes are touch and go enough as they are

Hear you about the dirty, filthy mud thing. But, the not-so-secret secret of this track is the full-on assault against innocent mud. It's a very thin mix by 21st century standards, so there's less low mid energy to get stuck in the mud. As per the style of the time, the drums are recorded fairly heavily damped, so even less mud-slinging. Those were gentler times.

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I like that White Winter Hymnal was already mentioned. That's one of my favorites too. You don't get that sound from the UAD EMT140 though Verbtone gets much closer IMO.

Here are some more.

An obvious choice that I don't think got mentioned yet:


Another obvious one. Everything about every part of the reverb on this song (or it just the amazingness of the song itself):


The drums, guitars and vox all have a great motown-esque verb. It was all over this record. Not sure how one gets this sound nowadays:


I also love the way Beach House drenches the keys, vox, and guitars in verb. Creates some really great atmospheres:

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[Warp69]

It brings me to a good point for this thread. Hardly any reverb algorithm can provide a truly huge sounding space (not some ridiculous, lame attempt) without being too "grainy" (or either with, actually). I think the best I've heard was from Yardstick 2492 (freaking awesome in general), though he doesn't like to call it a "reverberator" at all (anti raytracing, can't say I fully agree but definitely can't blame him). Incidentally, it also does the most amazing tiny space simulation.

I can't say I've been convinced by Bricasti M7 either, it just doesn't sound like a large enough space to me but who knows, maybe no one who posted samples knew how to set it up. If I could, I'd love to tweak it myself and hear how flexible it really is.

The Bricasti does have a Size parameter, but it has the same behaviour as Shape/Spread on Lexicon (conceptually - not the same implementation). David Griesinger also says that you should pick a Size (20m-30m) for achieving the correct buildup of density and then use the Shape/Spread to define the size of the space - although his last algorithm doesn't have Shape.

[valhallasound]

The Bricasti does have a Size parameter, but it has the same behaviour as Shape/Spread on Lexicon (conceptually - not the same implementation).

My impression of the Bricasti Size was that it was closer to the "Depth" parameter on the 224, but I could be wrong. The 224 Depth and 480L Shape/Spread both have the same goal, to soften and lengthen the attack of the reverb, but use different techniques to get there.

David Griesinger also says that you should pick a Size (20m-30m) for achieving the correct buildup of density and then use the Shape/Spread to define the size of the space - although his last algorithm doesn't have Shape.

The density buildup in the 224XL and later Lexicon algorithms doesn't really have any physical correlates (the 224 might have some physical basis to its designs, but only Griesinger would know that for sure). Most of the older algorithms, Quantec included, didn't perform any sort of raytracing in order to get a physically accurate space, and went for more of the "impression" of a space.

What was Griesinger's last algorithm, sans Shape?

Sean Costello

[Shy]

I'm here right now so I can tell you basically what Warp69 told me, I'm sure he wouldn't mind (thank him, not me ): David Griesinger's last algorithm, which is apparently the one he's most proud of, is the Surround/HD algorithm from the 480L Surround Cart. It's quite different than all the other algorithms, technically much more advanced than all of them and has a mighty strange ER section (and is the only algorithm that uses both engines). Many people (those who have heard it) prefer it over all the other 480L algorithms.

[Warp69]

To be quite honest - Im probably not part of the 'many people'

It sounds very different - maybe even non-lexiconish.

[valhallasound]

I'm here right now so I can tell you basically what Warp69 told me, I'm sure he wouldn't mind (thank him, not me ): David Griesinger's last algorithm, which is apparently the one he's most proud of, is the Surround/HD algorithm from the 480L Surround Cart. It's quite different than all the other algorithms, technically much more advanced than all of them and has a mighty strange ER section (and is the only algorithm that uses both engines). Many people (those who have heard it) prefer it over all the other 480L algorithms.

I haven't heard it in person. Or even any impulses of it. Although, from the description of the algorithm, an impulse would not capture the time-variation, and the time varying reflections seem to be the focus of this algorithm.

Sean Costello

[valhallasound]

I like that White Winter Hymnal was already mentioned. That's one of my favorites too. You don't get that sound from the UAD EMT140 though Verbtone gets much closer IMO.

Here are some more.

An obvious choice that I don't think got mentioned yet:

Abbey Road Chambers.

Another obvious one. Everything about every part of the reverb on this song (or it just the amazingness of the song itself):

Apparently this is the reverb used on Pet Sounds:



Oh, for 30 seconds of recording time and a sine sweep in that room...

The drums, guitars and vox all have a great motown-esque verb. It was all over this record. Not sure how one gets this sound nowadays:

Sounds like some sort of springy thing, or weird plate, on the drums. There is that weird "chirp!" sound on the transients that comes from dispersion in plates and springs. The guitars sound like they are recorded through Fender blackface or silverface amps, with the reverb enabled. I love that sound. Not sure about the vocals.

Sean Costello