KVR Audio

SWAN808 · Post by **SWAN808** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:42 pm

last time I did this I posted the result after 100 votes in the poll on Gearslutz and I think I'll go for that again...shouldnt take too long...

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:44 pm

Are you expecting a gaussian distribution? Such as with a coin flip?

You should state what you're attempting to demonstrate first.

Do you expect biased results?

What are the known biases in the data?

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sat Aug 22, 2015 11:46 pm

Can you include some links to studies demonstrating the influence of subjective interpretation to make this less ad hoc?

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:21 am

aciddose wrote:Also although I'm saying "if bias exists it will show up in the result" that doesn't mean it will be significant. People might be surprised at this fact, but when it comes to identifying differences using subjective means we humans are absolutely horrible at this.

In many cases you can intentionally introduce a bias that you consider objectively, relatively (using concrete measurements) "significant" and find that the result of the experiment yields no significance.

So I just want to note that I'm not claiming there is any certainty that a concrete bias in the data will translate to a bias in the subjective interpretation of that data.

I'm honestly trying to wrap my head around all this and be as fair as humanly possible. You say as humans we are horrible at identifying differences using subjective means. Those were your exact words above.

I actually agree with you. We are horrible at doing that. And isn't that pretty much what my listening to the two synths and honestly not really hearing any significant difference between the two shows?

If that is the case, I have 2 questions. Anybody is welcome to answer them.

1) What then is the purpose of all this? I see none other than (and this leads to question 2)

2) If I, or somebody else can't hear a difference or can't really tell which synth is which, what does it matter which synth they choose to use for the musical creation purposes?

Is the end listener, usually somebody who is an average Joe, going to be able to listen to the track of music and either...

A) Remark how bad/good our synth of choice was and that, in the case of the former, we should have used the other synth?

B) Not really give a crap one way or the other?

I can't help but wonder how many songs I've heard that, to my ears, sounded good/bad with both hardware and software synths.

Had the OP just titled this thread "Which Synth Do You Like Better?" and played the same samples without even identifying what synths A and B were, we wouldn't be at each other's throats like this. I swear I've never read so much nastiness on a music forum (other forums yes) in my life. People being called idiots and morons.

It's embarrassing.

Again, I hear very little, if any, difference between the two synths. So I seriously doubt your average Joe is going to hear a track made with a soft synth and say to himself "Damn you! Why did you use Diva instead of an OB 8?" Or whatever.

If I posted a track with 22 different synths, I guarantee that not one person here could name all 22 with any certainty, let alone if they were hardware or software.

So again, what in God's name is the point of all this?

Use whatever you want. Make whatever music you want. And the hell with whether or not software can emulate hardware.

In the grand scheme of making music, it doesn't mean a thing.

scrybz · Post by **scrybz** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:26 am

Urs wrote:
penguinfromdeep wrote:What is your guess Urs? LOL
Honestly, no idea... I tried to figure out what it is that people mean when they describe the differences, but while there are differences, obviously, I'm not sure I'd attribute them similarly. I'll be happy either way

Great response. No matter the outcome, it's definitively proven that you crafted a great instrument. This whole thing reminds me of the double-blind violin experiment where experts were asked to choose which violin sounds like a stradivarius (and seven out of ten got it wrong).

fluffy_little_something · Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:28 am

I see you are still discussing this, while I have programmed a couple of new patches on my probably not so analog Sylenth

Wagtunes, I suppose it is all about the approach. Like with cars, nerds and men in general care about horse power, max speed, torque and theoretical specifications like that, while women are practical and just want to get from a to b in a car that looks nice

I know there are exceptions on both sides, but still. Women care about what is being transported, men about the transport itself

The same applies to synth nerds vs musicians

fluffy_little_something · Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:37 am

Has the answer been given, yet?

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:32 am

wagtunes wrote:2) If I, or somebody else can't hear a difference or can't really tell which synth is which, what does it matter which synth they choose to use for the musical creation purposes?

No.

However that isn't the issue here. The issue is: "Can you make a statement about whether the differences are important?"

The answer is again: No.

These are subjective and so you can't make a factual statement about them.

That is why this whole test breaks down to being simply a coin toss that doesn't demonstrate or prove anything at all. It's a complete waste of time.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:37 am

aciddose wrote:
wagtunes wrote:2) If I, or somebody else can't hear a difference or can't really tell which synth is which, what does it matter which synth they choose to use for the musical creation purposes?
No.

However that isn't the issue here. The issue is: "Can you make a statement about whether the differences are important?"

The answer is again: No.

These are subjective and so you can't make a factual statement about them.

That is why this whole test breaks down to being simply a coin toss that doesn't demonstrate or prove anything at all. It's a complete waste of time.

Isn't that pretty much what I ultimately said at the end of my post?

samsam · Post by **samsam** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 1:59 am

fluffy_little_something wrote:Has the answer been given, yet?

Yes: A cannot ever be made to sound _exactly_ like B. And yes, please buy the soundpack, both here and on GS.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:00 am

wagtunes wrote:Isn't that pretty much what I ultimately said at the end of my post?

Yes.

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:01 am

samsam wrote:A cannot ever be made to sound exactly like B.

This is incorrect.

samsam · Post by **samsam** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:03 am

aciddose wrote:
samsam wrote:A cannot ever be made to sound exactly like B.
This is incorrect.

OK. So it's just "Please buy the soundpack on here and GS" then.

EnGee · Post by **EnGee** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:04 am

samsam wrote:
fluffy_little_something wrote:Has the answer been given, yet?
And yes, please buy the soundpack, both here and on GS.

ObsoleteAcc99 · Post by **ObsoleteAcc99** » Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:08 am

[DELETED]

Diva vs Analogue - a real world test