The Waves Update Plan scam

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
revvy
KVRian
1252 posts since 15 Feb, 2020

Post Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:35 pm

Exactly. Apple updates shit all the time. Devs who get on with it keep my business, devs who don't lose my future cash.

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LeVzi
KVRAF
2348 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:16 am

chk071 wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 1:39 am
Wel... I don't think there isn't much point in arguing with you, is it? :) You have made up your mind, and because you feel scammed, you call it a scam. You just miss two basic points: You don't have to upgrade, and Waves don't hide a single thing from you. It's all well documented on their website. You also see the prices when you hit the update button, but, you know that already.

So, all that's left for me here is to once again realize that people mostly don't use their heads to think, and get outrageous when they didn't read stuff, and rant that they got scammed while they didn't. Shame, but, hey, what can you do about it.
So updating 2 plugins ,from exactly the same version number, to the updated version number should cost the same thing right ? But because plugin A is 1 year older than plugin B, its $20 more expensive. And that's not ridiculous to you ?

I am not complaining about WUP or the need to pay for updates here, I updated the Renaissance plugins for the new GUIs, and I am happy to do that. What I don't like , and is a scam imo, is that I am paying MORE for the example I gave above. 2 exact same version number plugins, that both work, both are V9.2.8 or whatever the last one was, BUT I pay a lot more for one than the other just cos its older, regardless it was fully updated anyway in the V9 period. How is that good business sense ? If you are going from V9 to V11, you pay a flat rate per plugin or bundle , whatever. That I have no issue with .

What baffles me, is that people accept that and argue that a) the plugins work, there is no need to update, well how OT is that ? b) WUP should be free, Why ? c) They wouldnt touch waves with a barge pole, well great, but I happen to love their plugins and just wish they were a little less stupid with their WUP and just had a flat rate for every plugin regardless of its age, when renewing WUP's. Simples.
Forward ever, Backward never

fuzzlightyear
KVRist
87 posts since 15 May, 2020

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:43 am

MogwaiBoy wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:20 pm
fuzzlightyear wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:27 pm
I don't think blaming Waves for Apple's constant Operating System bug fixes, changes, updates and upgrades is the answer to the problem.
Maybe because instead of helping their customers navigate Apple's constant system-breaking OS updates, they clearly use it as an opportunity to extract more money from their customers. The fear and threat of your plugins suddenly not working is quite a nice carrot on Waves' stick.

"But you don't have to pay"

Meanwhile the news feed is littered with "developer X updates plugins, adding latest Mac OS compatibility, free for all existing owners."
They do help navigate your expensive ecosystem with Apple, it's called WUP, which matches the exact concept of high priced maintenance. If you buy into Apple and their proprietary ecosystem, you should be prepared to pay for it. That includes all the unforeseen costs...

You also have to try and remember how big Waves is, and how many plugins are in their catalog, including other coding that needs to be constantly maintained for "free"... especially for a large amount of customers that only spend $29.

The solution to your problem is to read the company's policies before making purchases you regret.
When people move the goal posts to make a point, there is no longer an original point to be made.

filulilu
KVRist
82 posts since 27 Aug, 2009

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 am

Is there any other developer that uses a similar updating system? Plugin Alliance has a fairly big catalog but you never pay for maintenance updates.
Yorgos Simeonidis

chk071
KVRAF
24571 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:51 am

filulilu wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:35 am
Is there any other developer that uses a similar updating system? Plugin Alliance has a fairly big catalog but you never pay for maintenance updates.
Does it matter when it's up to the user whether he wants to pay for it or not?

If you ask whether another developer has done paid updates, then, yes, I know one or two. Frankly, as I'm not into politics though, I usually don't mind much, as I can decide for myself whether I want to buy or not, or buy the updates or not. And, in subscription type products, it's the norm that you pay for updates (it's basically the whole deal about them).
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

jochicago
KVRian
915 posts since 26 Feb, 2018

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:15 pm

chk071 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:51 am
it's up to the user whether he wants to pay for it or not
I'm still waiting for you to prove your good faith in this argument by acknowledging that tons of first-time Waves buyers get suckered into the WUP system without being made aware of the hidden fees.

Or do you need links? - try the search bar on this very forum. Search for titles like "the Waves Update Plan scam".

Oh wait, I think you might be in one of those threads right now. Ignoring all the people telling you their stories, refusing to listen and just trying to derail by repeating yourself with the same trite and discredited points.

fuzzlightyear
KVRist
87 posts since 15 May, 2020

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 pm

jochicago wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:15 pm
chk071 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:51 am
it's up to the user whether he wants to pay for it or not
I'm still waiting for you to prove your good faith in this argument by acknowledging that tons of first-time Waves buyers get suckered into the WUP system without being made aware of the hidden fees.

Or do you need links? - try the search bar on this very forum. Search for titles like "the Waves Update Plan scam".

Oh wait, I think you might be in one of those threads right now. Ignoring all the people telling you their stories, refusing to listen and just trying to derail by repeating yourself with the same trite and discredited points.
In good faith Waves gives you 1 free year of WUP coverage for every plugin you buy. You don't have to pay for WUP ever if you CHOOSE not to. BECAUSE, there are upgrade paths that are even more generous and flexible.

You will always come out with free plugins and for cheaper then most other companies charge for just one plugin upgrade (not incremental). And it renews your WUP coverage for the plugin you own that's contained in the new upgraded bundle.

All incremental updates are free and the plugin version you paid for will continue to work just like you bought it and run on what was current and up to date at that time.

Most companies don't give free updates for life on their plugins.
When people move the goal posts to make a point, there is no longer an original point to be made.

fairlyclose
KVRian
767 posts since 4 Jul, 2019

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:32 pm

fuzzlightyear wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 pm
jochicago wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:15 pm
chk071 wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:51 am
it's up to the user whether he wants to pay for it or not
I'm still waiting for you to prove your good faith in this argument by acknowledging that tons of first-time Waves buyers get suckered into the WUP system without being made aware of the hidden fees.

Or do you need links? - try the search bar on this very forum. Search for titles like "the Waves Update Plan scam".

Oh wait, I think you might be in one of those threads right now. Ignoring all the people telling you their stories, refusing to listen and just trying to derail by repeating yourself with the same trite and discredited points.
In good faith Waves gives you 1 free year of WUP coverage for every plugin you buy. You don't have to pay for WUP ever if you CHOOSE not to. BECAUSE, there are upgrade paths that are even more generous and flexible.

You will always come out with free plugins and for cheaper then most other companies charge for just one plugin upgrade (not incremental). And it renews your WUP coverage for the plugin you own that's contained in the new upgraded bundle.

All incremental updates are free and the plugin version you paid for will continue to work just like you bought it and run on what was current and up to date at that time.

Most companies don't give free updates for life on their plugins.
but why WUP for license transfers, given - as you point out - there is no need to upgrade the plugin for it to work?

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Teksonik
KVRAF
13615 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:54 pm

fuzzlightyear wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 pm
Most companies don't give free updates for life on their plugins.
Image-Line gives free updates for life on their DAW..... :shrug:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

fuzzlightyear
KVRist
87 posts since 15 May, 2020

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:29 pm

fairlyclose wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:32 pm
but why WUP for license transfers, given - as you point out - there is no need to upgrade the plugin for it to work?
All clearly written on their web site, made available before purchasing and changing your mind.
When people move the goal posts to make a point, there is no longer an original point to be made.

fuzzlightyear
KVRist
87 posts since 15 May, 2020

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:30 pm

Teksonik wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:54 pm
fuzzlightyear wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 pm
Most companies don't give free updates for life on their plugins.
Image-Line gives free updates for life on their DAW..... :shrug:
Yes, but most of their plugins are demos and require money to register them.

As for the rest of the industry, most incremental updates are free, whole number upgrades aren't.
When people move the goal posts to make a point, there is no longer an original point to be made.

MogwaiBoy
KVRAF
3546 posts since 26 Nov, 2015 from Way Downunder

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:12 pm

fuzzlightyear wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:43 am
The solution to your problem is to read the company's policies before making purchases you regret.
You're right and I'm not going to argue with you on that - just having a moan about how, in my opinion, Waves don't really look after their customers. Waves = Buyer Beware. That $29 bargain maybe come back to sting you on the a## - it's intentional.

jochicago
KVRian
915 posts since 26 Feb, 2018

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:37 pm

fuzzlightyear wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:27 pm
You don't have to pay for WUP ever if you CHOOSE not to. BECAUSE, there are upgrade paths that are even more generous and flexible.

You will always come out with free plugins and for cheaper then most other companies charge for just one plugin upgrade (not incremental). And it renews your WUP coverage for the plugin you own that's contained in the new upgraded bundle.

All incremental updates are free and the plugin version you paid for will continue to work just like you bought it and run on what was current and up to date at that time.

Most companies don't give free updates for life on their plugins.
Seems to me you are talking about bundles like Gold, and that you mean re-buying the bundle or WUPing could be worth it if you get a couple new plugins (depending on the bundle).

If that's what you mean, what plugins have been added to Gold in the last 3 years? Most of the stuff there predates Netflix streaming.


> All incremental updates are free

What updates? Plugins like TrueVerb have been the exact same plugin since like 2003. Just about none of the plugins get any updates.

What Waves calls "a new version" is not a new version by software standards. Like I said, TrueVerb has gone through like 10 "versions" without them changing a single knob. They just invent version numbers and decide everyone has to "upgrade" even though it's the exact same plugin. Anyone that fails to "upgrade" to the new imaginary version gets shut out of bug fixes, support, and gets denied their legal right to sell/transfer their license.


> Most companies don't give free updates for life on their plugins.

"For life" is a long time in internet terms. Let's break that down to examples.

What plugin from another developer that you bought 5 years ago:
- has stopped working,
- or kicked you out of the installer,
- or force you to pay for a version upgrade to provide basic bug fixes / support
- or force you to pay a ransom fee in addition to the transfer fee to allow you to transfer the license?


Or to put it simpler,
If you have a 5 y/o plugin from PA, and you want to install on a new Windows laptop, you can very easily use the installer. You may use a second license for your new computer. And if you have any trouble installing, PA will give you support.

Which developer offers less than this?

Here is the experience with Waves:
If you bought a plugin 5 years ago then it was v9. The current v11 version is the exact same plugin, but now you are not allowed to install using the Waves Central installer. You have to find some convoluted process on their website and download a massive archive for manual installation. If you run into any problems with this, Waves will deny you support. And of course, you can't transfer your licenses nor use a second device.

BTW, it doesn't have to be 5 years ago. Waves will give you this treatment if you bought your plugin 2 years and a month ago (still v9).

What other developer...?
- treats you like you owe them money
- denies you use of their installer
- denies you basic bug fixes
- denies you basic support
- adds a ransom fee to transfer licenses in addition to the actual transfer fee

...for a plugin you bought 2 years ago?

User avatar
Teksonik
KVRAF
13615 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:20 pm

fuzzlightyear wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:30 pm
Yes, but most of their plugins are demos and require money to register them.
All Demos...."require money to register them". That's the whole point of a Demo. :wink:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

User avatar
Fleer
KVRAF
4794 posts since 23 Aug, 2014 from Boston/Cambridge

Re: The Waves Update Plan scam

Post Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:15 pm

fuzzlightyear wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:29 pm
fairlyclose wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:32 pm
but why WUP for license transfers, given - as you point out - there is no need to upgrade the plugin for it to work?
All clearly written on their web site, made available before purchasing and changing your mind.
Nope, Waves changed their license transfer policy two years ago, after I bought their plugins in those sweet v9 days of yore. Result: they went from an easy transfer system to a no transfer one in practice, all of a sudden demanding a transfer fee of 5% based on each plugin’s list price, which ended transfers. Nothing clearly written before purchasing at all.

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