Do Linux users tend to be somewhat paranoid?

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Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:59 am
No. It's 10 years old.
Video says it is two years old, but okay. Let it be 20 years old, as told, it is still very valid in every single point. Nothing has changed to good in any way.
No. No it is not. These problems have all been solved. It's not anyone's fault but your own that you don't keep up on the news. What I will say, is that you are about 10 years behind.
C/R, dongles & other intrusive copy protection equals less-control & more-hassle for consumers. Company gone-can’t authorize. Limit to # of auths. Instability-ie PACE. Forced internet auths. THE HONEST ARE HASSLED, NOT THE PIRATES.

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audiojunkie wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:26 am
FrettedSynth wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:42 am Peace
You are a better man than me. I allow myself to get riled up by trolls. I like your way of responding and aspire to becoming more that way. :)
Lol Thanks, the older I get the less anything really bothers me :)
But I must be paranoid? I stopped using C/R and the likes with the Reaktor4 update that I got free because I bought a lil app called Sync Modular in around 1999 or so v0.49 cost $49.
Only other C/R I had was the update to Gigastudio from sampler. Way back then I said this is crazy and bowed out from purchasing any more. Last I heard Reaktor4 can no longer be autherized even though NI still exsists. Too much other software out there to deal with C/R.

In defense of Tiles, I believe he has 20 year old software that still runs great on Windows.
I have Sync Modular installed on Linux\WINE runs great plugins and all.

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No. No it is not. These problems have all been solved.
In which universe? Every single issue still exists, maybe even worse. That might be the reason why i didn't even notice the age. It is timeless. I just had the fun with GlibC before a few weeks again.
What you are, is anti-Linux.
Am i? I am always surprised about all the things i am :)

I am not for or against Linux, Windows or Mac. I am first and foremost just a very pragmatic user that knows by coincidence more than just Windows. And i always try to use the best tool for the job.

And i represent the majority. The very most musicians uses windows or mac as a matter of fact. And i wanted to explain why. Since the first step to fix a problem is to realize that the problem even exists. Fun fact, i would be happy when i could move to Linux. I know it in and out. I don't even have the hurdle to get used to all the ass forward concepts.

To simply deny easily proveable facts and to kill the messenger instead is unfortunately always the predictable reaction. I should have known it. But that's me out then. When somebody needs to discuss ad hominem then he has no arguments and is just wasting my time. And this is the kind of behaviour that does more harm to Linux that i could ever do.

This discussion here could have been in a forum before 20 years. Word by word. Nothing has changed. Nothing changes. Linux is still at 2-3% market share at the desktop. Mainly since it is heavily used at universities. The average desktop user still avoids Linux wherever they can. And i regularly bite into my table since most of the Linux distros could be so much better with a few simple steps ... *sadcatnoise*

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Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:04 am
mevla wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:51 am
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:36 am It is two years old, and unfortunately still absolutely valid in every single point. If even then it has become worse. I cannot count how often i have for example cursed over the glibc issue in the last years.
No. It's 10 years old. Easy to confirm. Look at another video of the same talk that was posted online 10 years ago.

And related to 'cursing over glibc' :

"DLL Hell"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLL_Hell

Partech, 28 March 2022 : "What is DLL Hell Problem and how to solve it?"

https://www.partech.nl/en/publications/ ... o-solve-it

Baeldung, 16 June 2023 : "DLL Hell Problem"

https://www.baeldung.com/cs/dll-hell-problem

Let the curse be with you ?
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:36 am But thanks that you show the typical toxic Linux behaviour here. Makes me immediately stop discussing with you.
Hmmmm.
This is exactly the kind of discussion that i do not want to lead. And you put strawmen here. The so called dll hell has nothing to do and is not related in any way to the dependency hell. If even then it is the solution to the dilemma under Linux. You can run 20 year old software at Windows. Because of the DLL's. At Linux the software usually quits with new dependencies. Happened to me with Ubuntu with a point upgrade with python dependencies with my very own software that i develop. And now tell your users why your software has quit working two weeks after release ...

And now let's talk again about a so called DLL hell.
OK. I'm perfectly happy to discuss "Dependency hell". "DLL hell is what Windows users call it--there are no DLLs in Linux--we might as well use proper terminology if we are debating this subject. :) Dependency hell is all but wiped out through the new sandboxing and separation technologies. Use any distro you please. Stick with that distro's package manager. Install Flatpaks appimages, all the additional distros you want through distrobox, and if you are really desperate, you could even use snaps (I don't)--there is not a single software package in the Linux world that you cannot install and completely avoid any dependency hell if you do this. Use WINE and yabridge, and you can install most Windows software too--even the infamous ILOK software, as long as you move your keys to the iLOK cloud and don't use the dongle. As for hardware, anything that iOS uses is automatically going to work fine, with zero problems. Most everything MacOS uses will also work. As long as it is Class Compliant, it will work great, and it will get latencies similar to what windows gets with ASIO. Oh BTW, JACK itself is depreciated, and most distros are now using the new Pipewire technology that replaces PulseAudio and JACK. Also, the need for compiling your own kernel is gone since almost all of the real time patches have been integrated into the generic linux kernel. Putting two simple kernel parameters ( /preempt=full and /threadirqs ) essentially makes your generic kernel but up as a real time enhanced low latency kernel. All of this stuff has occurred in just the last 5 years. The same with DAW and plugin manufacturers--we've got Reaper, Bitwig, Ardour, Mixbus, and just recently Presonus Studio One. There is little need to do it, but Ableton, Reason, etc can work through WINE if needed--I don't use WINE much, because I have the majority of the tools I need straight through native Linux tools. Every year, there are more and more developers committing to making Linux plugins. Development frameworks no longer cater just to Windows or MacOS. These frameworks are now cross platform, and for the most part spew out source code compatible with not just Windows and MacOS and Linux, but also for iOS, and even Android in some cases. Linux is far less of a minority than people realize--you too apparently. If one were to take all devices and all oses into consideration, Linux (including Chrome and Android) far, far surpasses Apple in total OS percentage. There are many new developments coming that are going to further improve Linux in the next couple of years. There's a new development that is cutting game processing CPU usage in half--yes, that's correct--Linux is going to be seeing double performance from this simple change, and that's going to further make game developers look to linux for their gaming systems.

Here's a nice article about that:

https://news.itsfoss.com/linux-gaming-boost-driver/

I could go on and on and on. But I figure you'll have enough on your hands catching up with all of this I just gave you. Once you catch up on what's going on nowadays with linux, it will be really hard for you to continue with the arguments you are currently making about linux. As I've said, you're a little behind in what's been going on. :wink:
C/R, dongles & other intrusive copy protection equals less-control & more-hassle for consumers. Company gone-can’t authorize. Limit to # of auths. Instability-ie PACE. Forced internet auths. THE HONEST ARE HASSLED, NOT THE PIRATES.

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mevla wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:27 am
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:04 am This is exactly the kind of discussion that i do not want to lead. And you put strawmen here. The so called dll hell has nothing to do and is not related in any way to the dependency hell. If even then it is the solution to the dilemma under Linux. You can run 20 year old software at Windows. Because of the DLL's. At Linux the software usually quits with new dependencies. Happened to me with Ubuntu with a point upgrade with python dependencies with my very own software that i develop. And now tell your users why your software has quit working two weeks after release ...

And now let's talk again about a so called DLL hell.
I have no way to verify although I doubt that a software written 20 years ago will run seamlessly on a Windows machine built with the latest versions of everything (except that app) today. And if you can by enabling some compatibility feature, the results might not be guaranteed.

In other news, The Verge, June 2021 :

"Windows 11 will leave millions of PCs behind, and Microsoft is struggling to explain why"

https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/29/2255 ... m-response

When you are saying that you do not want a Linux vs/ Windows type of thing, are you aware of the arguments that you yourself bring against the use of Linux for audio creation purposes ? Do you really expect that no-one will squarely take this in without any reply ?
There's definitely a way to verify hardware drivers. Let's see some non-class compliant hardware from the Windows 98 days work with Windows 11--if the drivers will even install.... :wink:
C/R, dongles & other intrusive copy protection equals less-control & more-hassle for consumers. Company gone-can’t authorize. Limit to # of auths. Instability-ie PACE. Forced internet auths. THE HONEST ARE HASSLED, NOT THE PIRATES.

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Monsieur_FyP wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:45 am
BBFG# wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:28 am The new batch of up and coming Linux users are not paranoid, they're rebellious as they give the other two the finger and push their way out of their corner they try to keep every in.
Doesn't this snooty, aggressive tone prove that linuxians are indeed paranoid? :P
Not necessarily. Are we "paranoid", or are we tired of uneducated, outdated responses from internet trolls? Doesn't everyone get tired of those people? :)
C/R, dongles & other intrusive copy protection equals less-control & more-hassle for consumers. Company gone-can’t authorize. Limit to # of auths. Instability-ie PACE. Forced internet auths. THE HONEST ARE HASSLED, NOT THE PIRATES.

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Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts! It's great to see different perspectives, and I appreciate everyone's input so far. And let's keep it respectful, no need to call anyone wanker, wtf??

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FrettedSynth wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:53 am
audiojunkie wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:26 am
FrettedSynth wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 6:42 am Peace
You are a better man than me. I allow myself to get riled up by trolls. I like your way of responding and aspire to becoming more that way. :)
Lol Thanks, the older I get the less anything really bothers me :)
But I must be paranoid? I stopped using C/R and the likes with the Reaktor4 update that I got free because I bought a lil app called Sync Modular in around 1999 or so v0.49 cost $49.
Only other C/R I had was the update to Gigastudio from sampler. Way back then I said this is crazy and bowed out from purchasing any more. Last I heard Reaktor4 can no longer be autherized even though NI still exsists. Too much other software out there to deal with C/R.

In defense of Tiles, I believe he has 20 year old software that still runs great on Windows.
I have Sync Modular installed on Linux\WINE runs great plugins and all.
Probably so. But then again, I have 20 old "Windows" software that runs just as fine on Linux. :hihi:
C/R, dongles & other intrusive copy protection equals less-control & more-hassle for consumers. Company gone-can’t authorize. Limit to # of auths. Instability-ie PACE. Forced internet auths. THE HONEST ARE HASSLED, NOT THE PIRATES.

Post

Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 pm
No. No it is not. These problems have all been solved.
In which universe? Every single issue still exists, maybe even worse. That might be the reason why i didn't even notice the age. It is timeless. I just had the fun with GlibC before a few weeks again.
What you are, is anti-Linux.
Am i? I am always surprised about all the things i am :)

I am not for or against Linux, Windows or Mac. I am first and foremost just a very pragmatic user that knows by coincidence more than just Windows. And i always try to use the best tool for the job.

And i represent the majority. The very most musicians uses windows or mac as a matter of fact. And i wanted to explain why. Since the first step to fix a problem is to realize that the problem even exists. Fun fact, i would be happy when i could move to Linux. I know it in and out. I don't even have the hurdle to get used to all the ass forward concepts.

To simply deny easily proveable facts and to kill the messenger instead is unfortunately always the predictable reaction. I should have known it. But that's me out then. When somebody needs to discuss ad hominem then he has no arguments and is just wasting my time. And this is the kind of behaviour that does more harm to Linux that i could ever do.

This discussion here could have been in a forum before 20 years. Word by word. Nothing has changed. Nothing changes. Linux is still at 2-3% market share at the desktop. Mainly since it is heavily used at universities. The average desktop user still avoids Linux wherever they can. And i regularly bite into my table since most of the Linux distros could be so much better with a few simple steps ... *sadcatnoise*
These days, if you run a stable system, your dependency issues are either bugs, or a problem of your own making. It's as simple as that.

Let's take a different tack--explain your particular dependency issue, and I'll explain how you could have avoided the problem. For starters, I'd guess that you wanted to install a program that uses glibc that wasn't in your original distro. That would be a problem of your own making. That said, there are ways to avoid it--take Distrobox, for instance. You simply install Distrobox, choose the OS that you want that has that app that you are wanting in its repos, and install it through there. You then export that app to your original distro. Problem solved. If you follow simple rules, you avoid these problems.

1. Always use the package manager that came with your distro, and only install apps in your distro's repository to your main Linux OS. Do not break this rule.

2. Use sandboxing package managers or Distroboxes for everything else. Examples of this would be Flatpak, Appimages, Distrobox containers, and if all else fails, snaps. If you need to compile something, compile it in a distrobox container.

3. See rules 1 and 2.

Problem solved. Never experience Dependency Hell again for as long as you live.
Last edited by audiojunkie on Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
C/R, dongles & other intrusive copy protection equals less-control & more-hassle for consumers. Company gone-can’t authorize. Limit to # of auths. Instability-ie PACE. Forced internet auths. THE HONEST ARE HASSLED, NOT THE PIRATES.

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Tin foil hats and muesli. :hihi:

You can run unbuntu directly from windows with WSL these days.

Also Windows costs less than many compressors and eqs, let alone synths... So cost is hardly a relative issue to most people here anyway.

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audiojunkie wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:35 pm
Monsieur_FyP wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:45 am
BBFG# wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 10:28 am The new batch of up and coming Linux users are not paranoid, they're rebellious as they give the other two the finger and push their way out of their corner they try to keep every in.
Doesn't this snooty, aggressive tone prove that linuxians are indeed paranoid? :P
Not necessarily. Are we "paranoid", or are we tired of uneducated, outdated responses from internet trolls? Doesn't everyone get tired of those people? :)
There are of course good reasons to have open source software.

A much better thread than this would be a Linux for Audio 2024 thread. (If there isn't one).

I'd love to see a good guide to Linux for Audio.

The practical reality though is I would need/want:
Rme drivers
Steinberg drivers for midex 8 and small audio interface
Dual display drivers to work properly
Bitwig which I know does work
Cubase and Ableton to work
VSTs for many synths and FX from probably almost 20 different companies

Then I also use my pc for a bunch of other stuff.

For me I know windows works. And the cost of windows with a new computer every 5-6 years is not very much compared to the amount of time I'd need to spend trying to get a Linux install working....

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Most paranoid thread on KVR. See you guys on the moon!
<List your stupid gear here>

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audiojunkie wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:31 pm There's definitely a way to verify hardware drivers. Let's see some non-class compliant hardware from the Windows 98 days work with Windows 11--if the drivers will even install.... :wink:
This situation is about things that did work in windows 20+ years ago, that maybe didn't work on Linux at all... And may have had updated drivers since.

I think this is much better overall than how things have gone with Apple, and back then lots of stuff maybe wouldn't work with Linux at all.

NB: Standard class compliant hardware and drivers are definitely a very welcome thing and hopefully will reduce device obsolescence, which is a hugely wasteful problem, and also leads to problems like critical medical equipment needing a janky old PC to even operate....

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Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 pm In which universe? Every single issue still exists, maybe even worse. That might be the reason why i didn't even notice the age. It is timeless. I just had the fun with GlibC before a few weeks again.
What was it, if you don't mind giving some details ?
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 pm I am not for or against Linux, Windows or Mac. I am first and foremost just a very pragmatic user that knows by coincidence more than just Windows. And i always try to use the best tool for the job.
Do you realize that the same can be said about everything ? One is using a $900 Festool router, I use a Bosch. Actually two of them. So what ? What woodwork are you producing ? I mentioned that the three pieces in the signature below were made using Linux. Care to share some of what you have made ?
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 pm And i represent the majority. The very most musicians uses windows or mac as a matter of fact.
What is this ? McDonalds' is selling a million of burgers per day. So what ?
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 pm Fun fact, i would be happy when i could move to Linux. I know it in and out. I don't even have the hurdle to get used to all the ass forward concepts.
So far, I doubt it.
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 pm To simply deny easily proveable facts and to kill the messenger instead is unfortunately always the predictable reaction. I should have known it. But that's me out then. When somebody needs to discuss ad hominem then he has no arguments and is just wasting my time. And this is the kind of behaviour that does more harm to Linux that i could ever do.
Sorry, you underlined very clearly that you would not use Linux for audio creation. I, for one uses it since quite a few years and I have actual 'products' to support this. Again, if you think you can put down Linux w/o getting any replies, that's wishful thinking.
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 pm This discussion here could have been in a forum before 20 years. Word by word. Nothing has changed. Nothing changes. Linux is still at 2-3% market share at the desktop.
And this is about audio creation. Not exactly the general desktop users.
Tiles wrote: Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:14 pm Mainly since it is heavily used at universities. The average desktop user still avoids Linux wherever they can. And i regularly bite into my table since most of the Linux distros could be so much better with a few simple steps ... *sadcatnoise*
You make me think of an old guy who used to work in software. When I told him that I use Linux he snapped back : "Linux is dead, there's no future for it". Adding that with Linux work I bought and sold two houses for $1.1 million, got a few cars, helped sending the kids to university did not change anything : he still believed that Linux is dead. Even saying that the newly installed security system for the house runs on Linux, that the company making it were looking for software developers did not change anything.

There are people like that. Even when you encounter them in person.

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I don't know about you, but I went to the corner store to get a few beers. :)

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