Bitwig

majkel · Post by **majkel** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:36 am

would we except 64bit audio engine in the near future??
64bits floating audio engine exists in a reaper or cubase, and i feel there is a bit of better sound resolution, when i mixing in a reaper or cubase DAW.

antic604 · Post by **antic604** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:06 am

majkel wrote:would we except 64bit audio engine in the near future??
64bits floating audio engine exists in a reaper or cubase, and i feel there is a bit of better sound resolution, when i mixing in a reaper or cubase DAW.

Can you really?

Also, what kind of music are you mixing? Crickets' chirping next to an active volcano? The headroom available in 32-bit float mixing (which is well over 1000dB) should be more than enough for 99.9% of uses, not to mention no one will hear the difference playing the track via streaming service on an iPhone speaker

SLiC · Post by **SLiC** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:19 am

Yup

I have Cubase 9.5 and Bitwig and did a of critical listening when the 64 bit engine came out; nothing at all. 64 bit summing wont give you anything other than more CPU use for inaudible results (it 'theoretically' better, but not practically in any real-world measurable way)

kurasu · Post by **kurasu** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:40 am

Unless you're trying to do phase-cancellation tests of 2 phase-aligned Saturn V rockets next to a mosquito, 64-bit summing has no benefits to you.

JHernandez · Post by **JHernandez** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:33 pm

But 64 looks so much cooler than 32.

llze · Post by **llze** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:41 pm

just marketing hype

majkel · Post by **majkel** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:15 pm

1)i dont think so that a developers like: steinberg, cockos, presonus made it only for 'marketing' (especially cockos reaper...)
2)if 64 is more cpu hungry.. what about a legendary reaper's ability to be stable with very heavy projects (tested )
3) if 'we' cant hear any difference between 32 and 64, soo why any DAW's going to up with bitrate, - maybe a 16bit should be enough
64bits its 'only' twice more precision than a 32bit.

in my intention is not a classic war between fanboys of daw's...
i just mean, if something become to a industry standard we can except it also from bitwig.

llze · Post by **llze** » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:43 pm

Then the best would be to let the support know about your feature request, as suggested here: viewtopic.php?f=259&t=420129

Good luck!

ejgallego · Post by **ejgallego** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:47 am

majkel wrote:1)i dont think so that a developers like: steinberg, cockos, presonus made it only for 'marketing' (especially cockos reaper...)

Well so far nobody has been able to prove any benefit of 64 bits mixing, maybe in some very particular contexts you could gain a minor bit. I wouldn't bet for it.

2)if 64 is more cpu hungry.. what about a legendary reaper's ability to be stable with very heavy projects (tested )

64 bit processing takes more CPU, period.

3) if 'we' cant hear any difference between 32 and 64, soo why any DAW's going to up with bitrate, - maybe a 16bit should be enough
64bits its 'only' twice more precision than a 32bit.

The distance between your house and the center of the Milky is for all practical effects the same than the distance to Andromeda.

in my intention is not a classic war between fanboys of daw's...
i just mean, if something become to a industry standard we can except it also from bitwig.

As 64 bit are useless, most users will prefer BW to work on more interesting stuff...

[learn what dynamic range is]

Apratim · Post by **Apratim** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:10 am

Being a reaper user myself who used the old cubase I don't think the 64 bit will do anything to your audio in the human ear perspective even I sometime feel like it's in unecessary as it tends to eat up more cpu

And the reason why reaper is so stable because during playback it plays all audio file in 16 bit which is easy on cpu but as soon as you make change in gain level during the playback it plays at 64 bit for that current track even if it's a folder or the master the rule applies everywhere

Even the reaper devs knew that human wouldn't need so much bits during the playback time but for some godly reason they gave it but in a smart way

majkel · Post by **majkel** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:34 am

when you mix, you have many of individual tracks turned down from theirs full gain... to keep a tracks full quality, a digital host need a more bit depth..
i know its only math, but if you mix , for example 30<50< tracks - there is a difference, because you summing them, theirs all aspects (noise to floor, dynamic range etc.)
there are not integer algorithms, there are floating-points algorithms which means: 3+3=6 but 3,003+3,003 isnt a 6 its a 6,006
...you know what i means.
thats main reason way a major daws going up with bitrate of audio resolution in a 'mixing' engine.
many years ago best sound quality was a wav , cda 16bits 44100.. right now we have a flac ...?

kurasu · Post by **kurasu** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:58 am

64-bit summing as a feature is total and utter bullshit and we defintely won't implement it, so don't bother asking support. We will spend our precious time on features that actually bring benefit to our customers. I've personally seen this being implemented elsewhere because marketing, and anyone claiming it to be better is just playing with your fears and try to look more "pro" just for the sake of it.

It all ties in to the myth that analog summing is objectively better than digital summing, which caused some people to get concerned that 32-bit floating point therefore has some deficiencies. Which is simply not true, the only benefits of analog mixing are subjective, it adds distortions and colorations that many find enahnces the sound.

ejgallego · Post by **ejgallego** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:34 pm

kurasu wrote:64-bit summing as a feature is total and utter bullshit and we defintely won't implement it, so don't bother asking support. We will spend our precious time on features that actually bring benefit to our customers. I've personally seen this being implemented elsewhere because marketing, and anyone claiming it to be better is just playing with your fears and try to look more "pro" just for the sake of it.

It all ties in to the myth that analog summing is objectively better than digital summing, which caused some people to get concerned that 32-bit floating point therefore has some deficiencies. Which is simply not true, the only benefits of analog mixing are subjective, it adds distortions and colorations that many find enahnces the sound.

anoise · Post by **anoise** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 10:14 pm

kurasu wrote:64-bit summing as a feature is total and utter bullshit and we defintely won't implement it, so don't bother asking support. We will spend our precious time on features that actually bring benefit to our customers.

meta-redundant · Post by **meta-redundant** » Sat Mar 10, 2018 11:50 pm

kurasu wrote:64-bit summing as a feature is total and utter bullshit and we defintely won't implement it, so don't bother asking support. We will spend our precious time on features that actually bring benefit to our customers. I've personally seen this being implemented elsewhere because marketing, and anyone claiming it to be better is just playing with your fears and try to look more "pro" just for the sake of it.

I've been doing computer-based production for about 20 years, mostly in Cubase. I started using Bitwig about 3 months ago. Since then, it's been a fun and refreshing experience. But especially after the above post, I am genuinely excited to open Bitwig, as I now know I am supporting a science-based creative company, instead of another marketing-based junk farm. Seriously, we need more of this

I've watched various DAWs fill up with pages and pages of menus and functions that I will never use - functions that have been implemented purely to have something to scream at NAMM / Messe.

This is not to be disrespectful to the OP. Hopefully he/she are living a happy life of calm and philosophical fulfillment.

Bitwig

KVR Audio

[feature request] 64bit floating audio engine