Performance on M1 Macs

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antic604 wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 10:05 am
machinesworking wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:30 amThe fact that DP11 uses all the cores in Pregen (buffer for higher track counts), but also does not use the efficiency cores when using it's "live performance mode", points to either an Apple default, or a known issue with using Efficiency cores for real time operation. In other words if only one of them did not use the Efficiency cores like I first thought, then I would be upset, but since when DP11 is emulating Bitwig and Lives audio engine approach it also does not use the Efficiency cores, that points to a conscious programming decision.

In other words a physical limitation of using lower power cores along with high power ones in real time situations. Or, a decision to keep them for OS tasks so they don't interrupt the "unbuffered" real time audio.
That's a good point and something that crossed my mind as well, i.e. that there's some higher latency, lower clock or something when using those Efficiency cores? I just wonder if load allocation like you're seeing (all cores in pre-buffered mode, mostly high-performance cores in realtime) is done on the OS level, or is that something that the DAWs themselves decide? Most likely something in the middle, i.e. DAWs attach priority flags to jobs & the OS takes that into account when scheduling them?
Yeah that sounds reasonable, hard to say? but likely a developer could override it if they wanted to, but it would probably make the DAW unstable. It was one of the first things I thought about when the M1 was introduced, that it's possible we don't get any juice from the Efficiency cores in terms of audio processing, so honestly I was surprised that DP11 seemed to use them at all.

One thing, it points to Bitwig probably not seeing a 1.7x increase in CPU with the Max and Pro, more like a flat 2x, since it isn't using the Efficiency cores at all really. so in my test 40 instances, and in the three note chord test 70! :o

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BTW, when Bitwig's running via Rosetta2 - does it then use all M1 cores? That would be surprising :)
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antic604 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am BTW, when Bitwig's running via Rosetta2 - does it then use all M1 cores? That would be surprising :)
Begs the question why you would want to open it in Rosetta? I'm making a point of installing the least amount of x86 plug ins I can, but so far native Bitwig wraps every Rosetta VST thrown at it. :)

The AU wrapper that's native to Mac OS sometimes misses some plug ins or doesn't play well, so it makes sense to open Logic etc. up if you have to, but Bitwig is a different beast.

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Blah blah blah, so are there any benchmarks M1 mac vs intel mac with the same bitwig project?

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machinesworking wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:34 am
antic604 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am BTW, when Bitwig's running via Rosetta2 - does it then use all M1 cores? That would be surprising :)
Begs the question why you would want to open it in Rosetta?
Not that I want. I just haven't heard anyone say - even before new M1s came out - that going from Rosetta2 to native v4 gave significant performance boost, so if the former was using all cores while the latter only high-performance ones, then that would partially explain the (lack of) difference :)
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Hanz Meyzer wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:11 am Blah blah blah, so are there any benchmarks M1 mac vs intel mac with the same bitwig project?
Go ahead and act like a child about it, it's all in the first post. :-P

On the M1 Air I can get barely 21 instances, in the same test on the Mac Pro here (2009 modified with 12 or 2x6 core 3.33ghz Xeon chips), I'm getting 25 instances.

Look at it this way, as we've been discussing here, the M1 Air is essentially a 4 core with some helper cores. It's at roughly 80% of a 12 core desktop, and again this is the Air. :party:

FYI it might be an 09, but it's no slouch, Geekbench has it beating many models from the last couple years.

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antic604 wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:30 am
machinesworking wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 6:34 am
antic604 wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 8:06 am BTW, when Bitwig's running via Rosetta2 - does it then use all M1 cores? That would be surprising :)
Begs the question why you would want to open it in Rosetta?
Not that I want. I just haven't heard anyone say - even before new M1s came out - that going from Rosetta2 to native v4 gave significant performance boost, so if the former was using all cores while the latter only high-performance ones, then that would partially explain the (lack of) difference :)
I see no reason why, but because I know you need to know! :lol:

It looks like the Efficiency cores are being used for Rosetta emulation, they sit at Half filled with Bitwig stopped. I get 19 instance of Diva under Rosetta, so essentially a 10% cpu hit from Rosetta.

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machinesworking wrote: Sat Oct 30, 2021 8:21 amIt looks like the Efficiency cores are being used for Rosetta emulation, they sit at Half filled with Bitwig stopped. I get 19 instance of Diva under Rosetta, so essentially a 10% cpu hit from Rosetta.
:tu:
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machinesworking wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:29 am OK because I'm an idiot and hate sleep apparently, I ran the test again.
I'm getting 20 Diva instances in VST2 and VST3 natively. This is not bad, I just foolishly figured it would beat the 12 core Xeon here. What I see in Activity Monitor points to it using the Performance Cores and stacking 5 per core before crackling. Compare this to the Mac Pro with 12 cores getting only two instances per core, but eking out 24 by sheer core count.

What's interesting and weird is other DAWs for the most part performed quite worse with the 12 core, so DP11 for instance just smokes on the M1 so far. Again this is comparing a laptop to a workstation, the 12 core 3.33ghz Xeons are still good chips. DP11 has a "live mode" which is supposed to make it more like Bitwig and Live, tomorrow I'll see how it adds up without the rendering and buffering that it does to boost track count.

BTW the other reason I got the Air is it's never twice as powerful. The number quoted was 1.7 times and that looks accurate when you see the Geekbench scores.

COOL BUT...PLAYING HOW MANY NOTES PER INSTANCE ? :scared:

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Different CPU, but: The MacBook Pro 16" 2021 (10-Core M1 Pro) can run up to 56 Diva instances at once, where each Diva instance is playing a 6-voice chord on the "Deep Space Diva" factory preset. Pretty nice. Bitwig's Plug-In Hosting Mode is set to "Within Bitwig". 44100 Sample Rate, 256 Buffer Size.

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Wow, that's pretty impressive !
IMHO, Apple is doing a great job with their Apple Silicon CPU's.

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How well does Bitwig utilise multiple cores; I'm trying to figure out if its worth it to go from a Max (10 cores) to an Ultra (20 cores)...
MacPro 6,1 // Live 11 // Bitwig 4 // Reason 12 // Logic X // Soundtoys // U-he // FabFilter // Arturia // Vintage Hardware

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I discovered how important it can be to optimize DSP usage if you’re making complex tracks. I’m working in quad surround, and was having trouble with my DSP getting used up quickly but without using all of the CPU cores available. I did some optimization (set plugins to run individually, moved stuff into the grid, put 3rd party VSTs in post-chains instead of pre, disabled unneeded sends etc.) and got my default quad patch down from 4.0ms (out of 5.3) to 1.8ms. Now I have quite a bit more room for adding plugins and other fun stuff and more of it tends to get put on more cores.

Bitwig seems to prioritize its real-time nature over using all of the CPU power available, but if you play along with how it thinks it can use a significant portion of the cores available.

I’m on an M1 Max though so I’m not sure about the studio/Ultra.

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machinesworking wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:27 am So I'm about to start this test again, but one of the reasons that I got interested in Bitwig is it's outstanding performance with U-He Diva, I got something like 24 instances on great mode on an 09 12 core Mac Pro.

Recently I bought a M1 MacBook Air, love it, installed Bitwig and.. damn? I'm getting less than 20 instances??? Compare this to DP11 where I'm getting around 43! :eek: I think I got something like 13 instances in DP10 on the Mac Pro.

Anyone else using M1 Macs have any clue as to what's going on here?
Im running an m1 max mbp and bitwig out performs live by a lot on the same machine. I was very surprised at the result. Also, the way it handles plugins compared to live is really good. THere where a handful of plugins that just didnt work or only worked in AU on live when i upgraded to the m1 max. In bitwig all of them run in VST3 or VST2. Even the plugins that claim they wont yet work on m1.

Could it be you're comparing an entry level m1(air) to your, im assuming, top of the line at the time pro intel? I would still think the m1 air would perform better than an 09 anything.

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Bitwig Studio is the most stable DAW on my Macbook Pro M1 (not Max), never had a single crash.

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