Kinda sick of talking to NI about maschine2 + Bitwig routing

[Milkman]

Ive been a NI customer for decades, and 6 months on Bitwig. I became very good at routing and configuring maschine inside cubase, and can easily build and route 8, 12, 16 maschine groups and have them easily reading/writing midi and playing everything fine without a template. In Cubase.

I switched to Bitwig, and found difficulty in routing more than 1 maschine group, regardless of config. I learned all about Driven by Moss and used that script inside Bitwig, but no matter what I did the routing for multiple groups wouldnt work.

I fell back to my own minimal solution, which is 1 instrument track with maschine2 and 1 instrument track with input set to the first track's midi output. The second track captures the midi coming from track 1, and track 1 plays the audio. This wont work for more than 1 group, and Ive resigned myself to this. (Im slowly moving away from NI)

Then I saw a post on Native Instruments today with a mod claiming "its super simple"(to route maschine inside Bitwig), and they showed a recorded clip without routing exposed. I asked for the routing instructions but never heard back. The thread is here, if anyone cares:

https://community.native-instruments.co ... ine-3-0/p1

Has ANYONE successfully routed even ONE SINGLE maschine group inside Bitwig, on ONE instrument track with settings that work for both PLAYING audio, RECORDING midi into Bitwig's arranger, and PLAYING BACK those midi notes once recorded? I am NOT using the internal sequencer in maschine, and have no interest in it. I thought I had settled this debate months ago, but now NI brings it back...

Edit: I also see this thread here on KVR.
viewtopic.php?p=8208771
At the end of that thread, people say "ah hah! I finally got it working", but I dont see the actual routing config for bitwig + maschine in the thread.

[Milkman]

Well this is awkward. I once again solved this issue on my own, and Im hoping this can help others if others still use maschine inside Bitwig. Ill leave this post just in case someone is stuck on this one thing.

Everyone I spoke to, and every guide I read either showed how to route maschine inside Bitwig as a sequencer (I dont use that), or it glossed over the actual config for making this work for multiple groups inside Bitwig.

There is ONE MAIN DIFFERENCE between routing maschine in Bitwig vs in Cubase:

Step 1, add instrument track. Add maschine2 VST to that track leaving it on midi 1, and REMOVE THE INPUT SETTINGS FOR THAT TRACK. If that track is set for "maschine mk3 ctrl midi", the rest of your routing wont work. This was the thing tripping me up, and the big difference between Cubase and Bitwig in terms of maschine.

Step 2, add a few instrument tracks for a few maschine groups. I added A1, B1, C1 to 3 instrument tracks using midi 2, 3, 4. Each of these instrument tracks must have its input set to maschine2 (device).

Step 3, create groups in maschine, route them normally(the same way as in Cubase).

It was the first "dummy" instrument track that I was missing, and this solved the issue.

Thanks for coming to my self-troubleshooting post.

[nowiamone]

Thanks for sharing the solution!
You’re not alone with NI related issues - my setup would be rendered completely useless, if i would have upgraded to the latest komplete kontrol software, for example - as it has severe impairments for the customization of the user library (the heart piece of my setup). This is something i will have to wait out, as there’s no user-side solution as in your case.

[Milkman]

Thanks for sharing the solution!
You’re not alone with NI related issues - my setup would be rendered completely useless, if i would have upgraded to the latest komplete kontrol software, for example - as it has severe impairments for the customization of the user library (the heart piece of my setup). This is something i will have to wait out, as there’s no user-side solution as in your case.

Im really going to stop relying on NI for anything. I still use their drum samples and the mk3 hardware itself for percussion because my workflow has included that for years and I enjoy it, but their brand philosophy is getting worse and worse imo so I know better than to rely on them. I havent even updated to KK3 or anything. Havent ran native access in months and Im afraid to, lol.

I cant believe it took me 6 months to find the specific (one thing) tweak that made routing multiple maschine groups without the maschine sequencer work in bitwig. Now NI fanboys/brand managers are trying to shame me into feeling bad for not using maschine sequencer. "All you want is a sample pack player" is how they like to talk about it, but really -- that's what NI is contracting down into anyway. A glorified sample pack seller.

[nowiamone]

Thanks for sharing the solution!
You’re not alone with NI related issues - my setup would be rendered completely useless, if i would have upgraded to the latest komplete kontrol software, for example - as it has severe impairments for the customization of the user library (the heart piece of my setup). This is something i will have to wait out, as there’s no user-side solution as in your case.

Im really going to stop relying on NI for anything. I still use their drum samples and the mk3 hardware itself for percussion because my workflow has included that for years and I enjoy it, but their brand philosophy is getting worse and worse imo so I know better than to rely on them. I havent even updated to KK3 or anything. Havent ran native access in months and Im afraid to, lol.

I cant believe it took me 6 months to find the specific (one thing) tweak that made routing multiple maschine groups without the maschine sequencer work in bitwig. Now NI fanboys/brand managers are trying to shame me into feeling bad for not using maschine sequencer. "All you want is a sample pack player" is how they like to talk about it, but really -- that's what NI is contracting down into anyway. A glorified sample pack seller.

I still didn't update my Komplete 13 package, and i heard from other users, that when updating certain Kontakt Libraries in Native Access (without owning Komplete 14), they will stop working in KompleteKontrol / Kontakt 6. I would wish that that's not true, but that's what many users reported: updating NI libraries -> not being able to use them anymore, until updating to Kontakt 7. Such company "philosophies" are disgusting, imho. I'm used to updates not breaking things / being given a warning if they would / or having an easy way back! But NI gave neither. Just with the Komplete Kontrol Update. For a (necessary!) downgrade back to the working 2.x versions, one needed to go to a community help forum, and search for a google drive link there... a really non-glamorous way compared to the shiny native access, (where they should give access to previous versions, too!)

My main problem with NI is, that i still like NI products too much from its former glorious days - and would love for them to "get well again". The Komplete Kontrol integration of sounds is unmatched imho, i have my whole library in there. I looked into alternatives like Bluecat Audios Patchwork, but it would require an incredible amount of manual remapping, which would take weeks after weeks.

[Milkman]

Exactly, and I think that is what a lot of people experience and become frustrated by: they remember the "glory days" (the buyer's market) of native instruments, steinberg, etc. As I get older, I notice that almost *all* of my favorite things, no matter what industry or market sector, eventually get taken by investor-backed groups who then switch the deal and try to rake in much higher margins. This is a fundamental, unsustainable flaw in capitalism itself, and one we all have to reckon with as the world's ecosystems collapse because of what we have done.

Today those brands try to survive on the good will they built in years past, and when they fall down they try to blame it on customer expectations and customer computers while always marketing and appealing to newer, younger artists who dont know how much better this used to be. They will indeed replace every experienced customer with a less experienced customer, if they can, and by the time those customers' patience grows thin, their investors will have pocketed $$ and can move on to the next group of inexperienced musicians.

[nowiamone]

Exactly, and I think that is what a lot of people experience and become frustrated by: they remember the "glory days" (the buyer's market) of native instruments, steinberg, etc. As I get older, I notice that almost *all* of my favorite things, no matter what industry or market sector, eventually get taken by investor-backed groups who then switch the deal and try to rake in much higher margins. This is a fundamental, unsustainable flaw in capitalism itself, and one we all have to reckon with as the world's ecosystems collapse because of what we have done.

Today those brands try to survive on the good will they built in years past, and when they fall down they try to blame it on customer expectations and customer computers while always marketing and appealing to newer, younger artists who dont know how much better this used to be. They will indeed replace every experienced customer with a less experienced customer, if they can, and by the time those customers' patience grows thin, their investors will have pocketed $$ and can move on to the next group of inexperienced musicians.

So lets hope Bitwig will never be part of this capitalism downward spiral. I have high hopes in them, because they're truly honorable concerning linux support, and their effort to create an alternative to the VST environment! Such things are proving a great mindset.

[Milkman]

Welp.

Used that great Bitwig template for a couple months and everything was great. I used this in 20+ projects.

Then... I rebuilt my workstation yesterday to install a larger root drive. Now everything works EXCEPT the maschine groups inside Bitwig. Everything is identical.

So I deleted the old template and BWS profile and built new ones from scratch, just in case, and still maschine is broken. Now Bitwig is popping up some weird message about "feedback loops detected in the document graph. Please contact Bitwig support with detailed instructions on how you managed to achieve this". When I configure BWS 5.1.3 in the exact same way I configured it in 5.0.8, etc.

The identical methods I used 3 months ago dont work today, and I was able to check my config here in this thread as well as on the NI forums where I also talked about it. I also had screenshots and notes. Nothing works. Im back to using 1 single Maschine instance because 4 hours of working on this led to nothing.

Check out this error Im getting out of 5.1.3 when I try to use maschine as I did before.

BWS513_maschine1.PNG

Im giving up for now. This is infuriating, and the only things that changed since this all worked are 1) rebuilt windows10 from image, nothing installed but audio stuff, 2) BWS updated to 5.1.3 - I installed it just before my rebuild, 3) NI had a couple updates, but I already applied those 3-4 days ago, also before rebuild.

Im just going to pretend I dont own maschine for right now. Sooooooo sick of this.

[monolithx]

that's what NI is contracting down into anyway. A glorified sample pack seller.

The music creation industry is a niche. Power users are a niche in a niche. And power live oriented creators are a niche in a niche in a niche...

[perpetual3]

I get this error trying to create elaborate feedback loops. Please send me via DM a picture of the project with all the routing, nested device chains, track mixer, etc. I can try to help.

Welp.

Used that great Bitwig template for a couple months and everything was great. I used this in 20+ projects.

Then... I rebuilt my workstation yesterday to install a larger root drive. Now everything works EXCEPT the maschine groups inside Bitwig. Everything is identical.

So I deleted the old template and BWS profile and built new ones from scratch, just in case, and still maschine is broken. Now Bitwig is popping up some weird message about "feedback loops detected in the document graph. Please contact Bitwig support with detailed instructions on how you managed to achieve this". When I configure BWS 5.1.3 in the exact same way I configured it in 5.0.8, etc.

The identical methods I used 3 months ago dont work today, and I was able to check my config here in this thread as well as on the NI forums where I also talked about it. I also had screenshots and notes. Nothing works. Im back to using 1 single Maschine instance because 4 hours of working on this led to nothing.

Check out this error Im getting out of 5.1.3 when I try to use maschine as I did before.
BWS513_maschine1.PNG

Im giving up for now. This is infuriating, and the only things that changed since this all worked are 1) rebuilt windows10 from image, nothing installed but audio stuff, 2) BWS updated to 5.1.3 - I installed it just before my rebuild, 3) NI had a couple updates, but I already applied those 3-4 days ago, also before rebuild.

Im just going to pretend I dont own maschine for right now. Sooooooo sick of this.

[Milkman]

Im not sure how to capture all routing visually. Ill upload the template. I can upload a maschine template also if it is useful.

Its the simplest maschine-only BWS template. I have attached this 5.1.3 template to this post. When loaded, this project causes BWS to claim there is a loop and that I should contact support. I did so and am waiting to hear back.

-This is a blank template with the maschine plugin loaded into 1 instrument track, and that track has no input device set. The main plugin midi config is ALL/1.
-The other 3 tracks are tracks for connecting maschine groups (A1, B1, C1) to the corresponding midi channels (6, 7, , which are also configured in maschine's routing.
-These 3 tracks(A1, B1, C1) have input settings connected back to the main plugin(either way doesnt work - "maschine mk3 midi" or "maschine(device)". Bitwig output setting is "notes to tracks/maschine(device)" for each group.

Machine's routing is also standard for use inside a DAW, and is the EXACT WAY I had configured it before when this all worked. I can configure all this in Cubase 12 in 30 seconds, with as many maschine groups as I want, and everything works. Tested this last night. Bitwig seems to have the most trouble.

My maschine--group A1 (all groups are the same except midi):

-group/midi INPUT settings are manual, host, ALL channels (the plugin must receive notes on all channels to allow multiple groups to send notes to it)
-sound/midi INPUT settings are default, on channel 6
-sound/midi OUTPUT settings are host, channel 6

This works on cubase, and it worked on earlier versions of BWS without any loops.

[Milkman]

I get this error trying to create elaborate feedback loops. Please send me via DM a picture of the project with all the routing, nested device chains, track mixer, etc. I can try to help.

Welp.

Used that great Bitwig template for a couple months and everything was great. I used this in 20+ projects.

Then... I rebuilt my workstation yesterday to install a larger root drive. Now everything works EXCEPT the maschine groups inside Bitwig. Everything is identical.

So I deleted the old template and BWS profile and built new ones from scratch, just in case, and still maschine is broken. Now Bitwig is popping up some weird message about "feedback loops detected in the document graph. Please contact Bitwig support with detailed instructions on how you managed to achieve this". When I configure BWS 5.1.3 in the exact same way I configured it in 5.0.8, etc.

The identical methods I used 3 months ago dont work today, and I was able to check my config here in this thread as well as on the NI forums where I also talked about it. I also had screenshots and notes. Nothing works. Im back to using 1 single Maschine instance because 4 hours of working on this led to nothing.

Check out this error Im getting out of 5.1.3 when I try to use maschine as I did before.
BWS513_maschine1.PNG

Im giving up for now. This is infuriating, and the only things that changed since this all worked are 1) rebuilt windows10 from image, nothing installed but audio stuff, 2) BWS updated to 5.1.3 - I installed it just before my rebuild, 3) NI had a couple updates, but I already applied those 3-4 days ago, also before rebuild.

Im just going to pretend I dont own maschine for right now. Sooooooo sick of this.

I can also upload a maschine project with this routing in it, if that is something you want to look at.

Ive spent... hours and hours looking at this, all over again, and once again its just a dead end. Its almost like something changed, either in maschine or in bitwig since this worked for me. I honestly am at a loss at this point. I hope to hear back from Bitwig support soon.

[Milkman]

lol, well. Bitwig got back to me today and said the issue may have been introduced in 5.1.3. They are releasing 5.1.4 (beta I assume) today and asked me to install it and try again.

Perhaps this was a bug or change introduced in 5.1.3.

Edit: 5.1.4 stopped the error in the above screenshot, but did not solve any of the maschine2 routing issues that occurred recently. I still cannot route multiple maschine groups via multiple midi channels in/out of bitwig, I still lose the pre-roll feature when I try to route this, and the results are inconsistent.

I can route maschine as normal(a single instance), play notes and hear audio, and record notes into the arranger. But those notes are silent when played back. If I then toggle the input settings for this track - to anything, from anything - the track goes totally silent and will not make any sound, even if I put it back the way it was. I have to delete the track and add a new instrument track, connect maschine again, to get it to make any sound.

Something isnt right here. Continuing to work with Bitwig support.

[Milkman]

Strange days. So Bitwig updated to 5.1.3 recently, and Maschine2 has been the same version since December (2.17.5). I rebuilt my PC 6 days ago, but before that 5.1.3 and 2.17.5 were playing nicely together.

Bitwig support has been unable to help because "we dont have a maschine MK3 to test with. We will try to get one soon and work with you." <sigh>

So once again I've built my own workaround, lol. This is a pattern with me.

I now have a working maschine2 + Bitwig 5.1.3 multi-channel in/out (no maschine sequencer) template that does not cause errors, does not randomly change input settings when I close/open the project, and seems stable for now.

Steps:
1. I loaded the Bitwig native MK3 template in the NI controller editor outside the DAW, and ran the MK3 in MIDI-mode.
2. Add 1 instrument track in Bitwig, add maschine2 plugin to this track, remove input settings, output to master. MIDI 1(or any unused).
3. (toggle MIDI mode after doing #2 or the plugin will force your MK3 back into plugin mode)
4. Add as many instrument tracks as you like for as many Maschine groups as you like. Each track gets "maschine mk3 midi" as input, and "tracks to notes/plugins/maschine2/MIDI channel 1, 2, 3, whatever" as output.
5. Maschine2 is routed as normal, as it is in cubase or previously in Bitwig. I can provide full screenshots and details of this config if anyone needs it.

NOTE: when you use maschine2 plugin connected to MK3 in midi-mode, you have to click on(select) the Bitwig track for the maschine2 group you want to actively work with. When you select it, you will see the MK3 hardware switch the pads and displays to the group you want. Manually selecting that on the MK3 from MIDI-mode is difficult. When you first click on a group during a new session, you will also need to click the "pad mode" switch on the MK3 hardware to get into pad mode.

Workaround leaves me unable to use the MK3 hardware to browse and select content in my Komplete library, but it works for now and I can select content with my mouse onscreen. Bitwig says they will get an MK3 and try to get plugin working with me later on.

Another workaround for NI gear wooooot I cant wait until they release an mk4 lmao workaround city.

[SmajjL]

It sounds to me you know your way around and only missing one workaround that might work, and that is https://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/loopmidi.html.
So you use one of Maschine's MIDI IN, and Loop MIDI OUT, something like that.
I have not done it in a looong time but it used to work on my Maschine Mikro Mk2.
I saw you were suffering and just wanted to give you a heads up and hope it works still