How to record the MIDI output of a plugin (rack) into a MIDI clip?

[scotofil]

Hi all, first topic here, so please be gentle and constructive if I do something wrong!

tl;dr version: this is probably MIDI routing 101, yet I can't seem to figure out how to record the MIDI output of a plugin (rack) to a MIDI clip.

The long story: I'm trying to implement the poor man's Slate Trigger with Unfiltered Audio's G8 (either with the VST2 or 3 version) & EZ Drummer 2 in W11.5.18 Free on Win10, and I can record the triggered audio from EZD2 just fine, but I'd also like to have the MIDI output of G8 for manual fine tuning, and I'm stuck with recording that.

This is what I have currently:
Track 1: snare audio clip -> plugin rack with G8 + EZD2 -> output to-be-defined
Track 2: empty track -> the same plugin rack -> output to the default audio output
Track 3: empty track intended to record the MIDI output of G8/the rack
The rack works like this: it takes the L+R audio from Track 1, feeds it to G8, G8's MIDI output is connected to EZD2's MIDI input and the rack's MIDI output as well; EZD2's L+R audio outputs are connected to Track 2's L+R audio inputs. Track 3 isn't part of the rack, and Track 1's L+R inputs are connected to its own outputs so that I can monitor the original audio as-is, but this is really just nice to have, and I'd be happy to give up on this if necessary.

As tracks do not have MIDI inputs like plugins do, I tried setting Track 1's track-level output to all sorts of MIDI outputs (including directly Track 3, and also setting Track 3's input to the MIDI of Track 1, a loopMIDI ephemeral loopback interface which is enabled among the MIDI inputs & outputs), but whenever Track 1's track-level output is set to a MIDI device, the rack does not work as expected; it appears as if Track 1's outputs would become mute or disabled in such cases, and G8 does not receive any media input.

Can anyone provide some hints how to proceed? Or if the above approach is fundamentally wrong, how should this be done correctly/wisely?

[Watchful]

Welcome! Glad to have you here.

I'm a little confused...it seems from your description and screen shots that you're trying to turn the audio of track 1 into MIDI data on track 3.

Is this right?

If so...

Unless the plugin is capable of generating MIDI data, that's never going to work. It would be like trying to send an audio file to a photocopier in hopes it produces sheet music. MIDI data is literally computer data that can be converted into sound by a plugin or hardware; you can't go the other way without special software.

If not, I apologize for misunderstanding and wasting your time with the previous paragraph!

What I think you're looking for is either a way to export an existing drum pattern to MIDI (usually drag and drop from the plugin's pattern browser...find a pattern you like and drag it into an empty track), or a way to generate MIDI from audio (the full version of Melodyne or some other tools; I believe some DAWs have some basic utilities but they're not always reliable and Waveform isn't yet one of them).

Generally, you'd go the other way: create a MIDI track, put in EZ Drummer, and have it respond to the notes in the MIDI track. Then you can send the MIDI data to multiple tracks/plugins via a rack, or just route its audio to other tracks.

[scotofil]

In fact, the plugin is capable of generating MIDI data: G8 is a gate (see what they did there with the name?!) that sends a MIDI note whenever the gate is opened.

In this particular example the audio clip on Track 1 is a close-miced snare top take, and the gate is set up to open only for the main hits, and when open, it sends a C2 MIDI note to its output. As you can see, within the rack, G8's audio output is not even connected anywhere, whereas its MIDI output is connected to the rack's MIDI output and the MIDI input of EZD2 (which is a simple drum sampler), and C2 in EZD2 triggers a snare sample. Triggering EZD2 like this works like a charm: I can hear and easily record the generated audio (which matches the main snare hits on Track 1), so the MIDI notes are there.

My problem is with figuring out how to record the MIDI notes coming from the MIDI output of the rack into a MIDI clip.

[scotofil]

Any hints? I suspect this is really something super basic...

[spoontechnique]

This would be nice, but I don't think it can be done. I don't think virtual instruments always output the MIDI, they merely modify it in their own ecosystem.

[Peter Widdicombe]

Interesting. You can select MIDI output from a track as the input to another track and arm it for recording. In my case I had simply the chord player on track 1, with the MIDI output going to track 2. Make sure to delete the volume control on track 1.

On track 2, I had a piano vst; and armed both tracks for recording. When simply playing with MIDI input on track 1, single notes input become multiple (chords) on output, which would then be redirected to track2, which would play the chord based on the input note. Unfortunately, only track 1 would actually RECORD the input notes; the MIDI coming into the ARMED track 2 would play, but not actually record (like there was a bypass on input that only takes real MIDI instruments, and NOT incoming MIDI from the other track. You WOULD actually hear the chords based on the note on track 1; but the note events got ignored and nothing recorded on the track.

This may be one for the devs - although don't know whether this would be popular, and whether it breaks other things... It SEEMS logical, though ?

[scotofil]

This would be nice, but I don't think it can be done. I don't think virtual instruments always output the MIDI, they merely modify it in their own ecosystem.

I'd have to accept this given that most likely your MIDI experience outweighs mine, but I'd find this super strange. I don't intend to point fingers to other DAWs' features, but even within Waveform one can route MIDI across tracks and I'd expect that the MIDI output of plugins should be usable somehow on track level as well, not only within racks.

I mean let's take one step back from my actual use case, and assume the following simple setup:

• Track 1 contains an audio clip

• On Track 1 there's only a single plugin (apart from the native vol & pan + meter plugins)

• The plugin on Track 1 generates MIDI based on the content of the audio clip on Track 1: it consumes the audio data from the audio clip via its audio inputs, and sends the MIDI commands on its MIDI output

Is there really no means to capture/record/render the MIDI notes that appear on the MIDI output of the plugin on Track 1?

[scotofil]

Interesting. You can select MIDI output from a track as the input to another track and arm it for recording. In my case I had simply the chord player on track 1, with the MIDI output going to track 2. Make sure to delete the volume control on track 1.

On track 2, I had a piano vst; and armed both tracks for recording. When simply playing with MIDI input on track 1, single notes input become multiple (chords) on output, which would then be redirected to track2, which would play the chord based on the input note. Unfortunately, only track 1 would actually RECORD the input notes; the MIDI coming into the ARMED track 2 would play, but not actually record (like there was a bypass on input that only takes real MIDI instruments, and NOT incoming MIDI from the other track. You WOULD actually hear the chords based on the note on track 1; but the note events got ignored and nothing recorded on the track.

This may be one for the devs - although don't know whether this would be popular, and whether it breaks other things... It SEEMS logical, though ?

My scenario is different by having an audio clip on Track 1, and things break immediately when I select anything MIDI as the track's output. With that, the plugin doesn't seem to receive any audio data on its audio inputs whatsoever (G8's GUI has a waveform segment, so it's easy to check).

Also, if I select as Track 2's input Track 1's MIDI output, but keep Track 1's output as the default media output, arm Track 2, and start recording, no MIDI content is recorded.

[terrynoakes]

Not sure if this would work, or what you want. Could you use an FX send and return. Placing the send before the plugin on your track and monitor that on the return track. Select midi as out on the audio track and then select that as the input on track 2 to record the midi information.
I haven't tried this, just thinking it through in my head, while try to ignore what the wife is watching on TV.
Sorry if it completely misses the mark.

[Peter Widdicombe]

to me is exactly what I was doing conceptually, but I didn't see any input from the prior track when I select it as input. Maybe there are other system-level options needed to enable "hijack of MIDI from another track"? You DO somehow need to be assured the MIDI is not being "swallowed up" by something in the chain on the input track. In my case, I deleted the VST from track 1, so it had to be played by the "destination" track, which it does. However it apparently doesn't show up on track 2's input level meters nor in any recordings; but it DOES play chords based on track 1 notes.

The other way it COULD work is by using something like MidiYoke, where you feed the output to MIDI as though it were going externally and feed it back in as another selectable input. However, IF the above worked it's logical, if it worked.

Terry's idea is essentially the same again, but would use 3 tracks; the original audio-to-MIDI extractor, FX sent to another track; and then record the final from the one with the MIDI FX return. In my case, this ALSO "functionned" as expected, but apparently no notes coming in according to the input meters, and no MIDI recorded. (This on Windows, FWIW, and Waveform 11.5.16)

[scotofil]

Not sure if this would work, or what you want. Could you use an FX send and return. Placing the send before the plugin on your track and monitor that on the return track. Select midi as out on the audio track and then select that as the input on track 2 to record the midi information.
I haven't tried this, just thinking it through in my head, while try to ignore what the wife is watching on TV.
Sorry if it completely misses the mark.

The problem is, that once I "Select midi as out on the audio track", the audio stream stops, and the plugins (both the native send utility & G8) on the track do not receive any audio anymore. Apparently the input & output "types" (audio/MIDI) of a track are tightly coupled and determine one another...

[scotofil]

[,,,]
Terry's idea is essentially the same again, but would use 3 tracks
[...]

This is different again from my use case, as I use an audio clip on the "source" track, but would want to output MIDI somehow from the same track. Here, the source track contains a MIDI clip as well.

[scotofil]

And forgot to mention: I'm very grateful for all of the hints & recommendations; keep them coming!

[terrynoakes]

This is of no help to you, but I re loaded W8, because something in the back of my mind though it was possible at one point.
W8 has a midi channel splitter.
Unfortunately doesn't seem to be in W11
But that records midi onto a different track!!
I know I'm not using audio as the trigger, as I don't have G8, but it's the midi coming out off it I think is the important bit.
I if both splitter's are enabled then no midi is recorded, no idea why.
Maybe ask Tracktion to bring this back.
Still not sure if it's what your after though.