Rebuilding Make Noise Strega in the grid?

[whyterabbyt]

the delay is similar to a bbd

Nope, what foosnark said was correct, its not 'similar to a BBD', its digital.

From the Datasheet;

The PT2399 is a CMOS echo/delay processor developed by Princeton Technology Corp. This digital chip includes an ADC (Analog to Digital converter), 44Kb of RAM to store the samples and a DAC (Digital to Analog converter).

[j wazza]

the delay is similar to a bbd

Nope, what foosnark said was correct, its not 'similar to a BBD', its digital.

From the Datasheet;

The PT2399 is a CMOS echo/delay processor developed by Princeton Technology Corp. This digital chip includes an ADC (Analog to Digital converter), 44Kb of RAM to store the samples and a DAC (Digital to Analog converter).

i was going by this saying that it is similar to a bbd as its not a completely digital delay, it uses analog signal flow, im no expert on bbds or this other delay
https://anasounds.com/the-alternative-t ... he-pt2399/
it also sounds noisy like bbds do

anyway softube modular has a digital delay that could be used with other analog components and analog feedback which would probably get closer than a completely digital delay. Importantly, im not saying it would sound the same, just closer than the other options

[whyterabbyt]

i was going by this saying that it is similar to a bbd in that its not a completely digital delay, it uses analog signal flow

The PT2399 is quite literally a completely digital delay, its just not used in completely digital circuits. It even indicates so on the diagram on the page you linked to.
The fact that you'd use need to use external analog components to add particular capabilities to it as part of a circuit doesnt change what the PT2399 itself is, though. That's like saying the microprocessor in my Zoia is similar to a BBD because they both might use analog power regulators.

[j wazza]

i was going by this saying that it is similar to a bbd in that its not a completely digital delay, it uses analog signal flow

The PT2399 is quite literally a completely digital delay, its just not used in completely digital circuits. It even indicates so on the diagram on the page you linked to.
The fact that you'd use need to use external analog components to add particular capabilities to it as part of a circuit doesnt change what the PT2399 itself is, though. That's like saying the microprocessor in my Zoia is similar to a BBD because they both might use analog power regulators.

the delay chip, the part that actually delays the sound is digital, but we all know a delay effect isnt just about making the sound later, the feedback etc is a key part of the effect/sound, the circuit diagram is of the whole pt2399 which contains the digital delay chip and the rest is analog, so no the pt2399 is not completely digital
thats completely different from power circuits that do no sound processing, were talking about emulating the sound, analog signal flow affects the sound

the strega also has other analog parts so softube modular (or another VA modular) with the digital delay is prob the closest youll get to emulating it without a plugin actually based on it, it may still not sound close but i think this could

as the op wants to emulate it in the grid, id suggest using waveshapers on the oscillators/feedback to emulate analog saturation, maybe some noise too, the 'bend' level module is a good waveshaper, you could try adding some drift too, and he could try using analog oscillator samples in the sampler or wavetable modules, i dont think the grid would sound very close though

[foosnark]

I just don't think the whole analog/digital thing is even relevant to this. If you "analog model" the wrong thing, that's just not helpful.

I've owned two unfiltered Eurorack BBDs (a Doepfer A-188-1 with 256 stages and an Erica Pico BBD), three Eurorack PT delays (Koma Field Kit FX, Synthrotek Echo, Befaco Crush Delay V3), plus a Lyra-8 and Strega that both have PT delays.

With a BBD you get:
- constant clock whine if it's underclocked. This can be filtered out pretty conveniently, but of course it makes your repeats darker.
- aliasing from the inadequate sample rate. It sounds a bit different from a typical digital downsampling effect or a clocked sample & hold, but it's the same basic principle. This can only be prevented with a pre-filter with a low and steep enough cutoff to restrict the input frequencies, making the sound that much darker.
- note this is not "bitcrushing" because there are no bits. It's too low a sample rate, even though the samples are stored as charges in extremely tiny capacitors.

With a PT delay:
- no clock whine.
- increasing levels of noise. At first it's pretty similar to white noise, and you can lowpass filter it to reduce the impact. This is where people used PT chips to cheaply, sort of, imitate a BBD delay. But it only applies to a relatively small range of delay times.
- as the clock slows further, the noise is uneven and you get what I think of as "crunchy bug sounds" that will not be filtered out. This is independent of the input; it'll happily sound like breakfast cereal being munched by aliens with no input whatsoever.
- the clock frequency is much higher than a BBD, because instead of, say, 256 little capacitors, there's 44KB of RAM.
So you just don't get the aliasing.
- the ADC is a 1-bit sigma-delta converter. You're not really getting "bitcrushing" out of that either.

Honestly, a digital delay that crossfaded in some multisamples of that characteristic noise would be a better emulation of a PT delay than an actual analog BBD, nevermind a digital emulation of an analog BBD.

[foosnark]

Honestly, a digital delay that crossfaded in some multisamples of that characteristic noise would be a better emulation of a PT delay than an actual analog BBD, nevermind a digital emulation of an analog BBD.

Also I should make it clear, I don't believe using noise samples would make it a great emulation, just closer to faking it than trying to use a BBD.

All this talk about too-slow clock rates is relevant to the Strega because you can easily push the delay time well beyond what the PT is meant for. The relatively "clean" part of the delay is only in the last fraction of the knob range (on mine at least -- the ranges can vary on different units apparently).

The behavior when modulating the delay time (including at audio rate) would have to be looked at too, because that's really important to the Strega's whole thing. There are two CV inputs for delay time modulation (one prewired to the oscillator sub) and two touchplates for it as well.

[justin3am]

Whether you can get close to the same sounds with Bitwig's grid or not, it can still be fun to build something based on inspiration of some piece of gear. I do this all the time in the grid and with my hardware modular. foosnark made a great summary of the components of Strega and how they behave. While you might not be able to mimic all of it's features and behaviors, I'm sure it would still be a fun endeavor. The Grid offers so many ways to make standard DSP functions get weird... just adding some noise (as already mentioned) in places you wouldn't expect to find noise, is gonna have some cool results.

[j wazza]

might also be worth trying to use bitwigs delay 1 and putting various effects in the feedback loop, maybe with a noise generator in the feedback loop

[elxsound]

As mentioned the delay noisy f**ker except for the smallest fraction of knob turns. This shouldn’t be thought of as the insane numbers of delay emulation plugins current available… Make Noise took a different approach than most (some pedal maker did something similar with the same chip) and didn’t try to create your normal “sound in/sound out” then repeats with subtle characteristics but instead made the chip itself audible to the point of introducing clock noise. It’s another sound source.

But it doesn’t stop there…

Even controls like absorb do more than change the delay tone, but adjust the filter resonance. This is pretty much the theme of what Strega does where different parts affect other parts. Another example is Tonic affected by delay Time. It’s more noticeable at different settings.

There’s some normaled modulation setting, like fixed macros via touch.

Recreating it will get something different but not Strega. Nothing wrong with that.

[j wazza]

deleted

[Tj Shredder]

I must say I was only triggered by the claim in Softube it would be easier to replicate Strega than in the Grid, and the argument was that Softube sounds more analog. The „sounds analog“ argument is completely irrelevant in this case. To rebuild this in Softube would be a huge patch with lots and lots of modules. Still it would be easier to do it in VCV Rack. But also would need lots and lots of modules. Even easier it would be to replicate it in the Grid, because the Grid has a few low level objects and even more important the touch screen support of the Grid. And still easier it would be to do it in Max/MSP. The only way to get closer than that, is to get into programming in C and make a module for VCV Rack or Voltage modular… All these would still miss the hands on control which is way more important to the music than the question if it sounds more analog or not.
This is really a mindfuck discussion, but somehow entertaining…

[elxsound]

I must say I was only triggered by the claim in Softube it would be easier to replicate Strega than in the Grid, and the argument was that Softube sounds more analog. The „sounds analog“ argument is completely irrelevant in this case. To rebuild this in Softube would be a huge patch with lots and lots of modules. Still it would be easier to do it in VCV Rack. But also would need lots and lots of modules. Even easier it would be to replicate it in the Grid, because the Grid has a few low level objects and even more important the touch screen support of the Grid. And still easier it would be to do it in Max/MSP. The only way to get closer than that, is to get into programming in C and make a module for VCV Rack or Voltage modular… All these would still miss the hands on control which is way more important to the music than the question if it sounds more analog or not.
This is really a mindfuck discussion, but somehow entertaining…

I think the biggest thing would be sacrificing any touch controls and swapping that for in/out destinations to be modulated. Even in the hardware world, that was one of the most frequent requests I saw in YT comments simply because it could quickly make this thing a monster as both a destination and source for modulation.

[j wazza]

I must say I was only triggered by the claim in Softube it would be easier to replicate Strega than in the Grid, and the argument was that Softube sounds more analog.

strange thing to be triggered by, ill start leaving trigger warnings every time i talk about softube sounding more analog than the grid

trigger warning: i talk about this below, some viewers may find this distressing

The „sounds analog“ argument is completely irrelevant in this case of emulating a piece of analog hardware

this doesnt make sense, completely irrelevant is such an extreme claim that would only be right if being analog has no effect on sound whatsoever. all analog has similarities - depth, richness and imperfections that digital doesnt have, even though softube and real analog will often sound very different from different analog hardware in other ways, it will always have these qualities. including strega. softube is a great emulation that has these qualities, this means softube modular will sound similar in these ways to anything analog, more than the grid will, even though softube will still sound very different from some hardware.

the base tone of strega does not sound unique to me other than the weird stuff it does, if you listen to just its oscillators its a very standard analog sound, obvs thats not the only part that affects the sound, but i think with eurorack modules set up in a similar way you could get vaguely close to that sound, but not exact and not even close to the same knob behaviour

maybe you could say 'not that relevant imo' then sure

[Tj Shredder]

Ok, come up with a Strega emulation in Softube and share it with a video… Then you could convince me that Softube is an appropriate tool for this kind of stuff. Best is to replicate that demo video…; - ) Good luck…

[j wazza]

i didnt say it would be easy and i dont even really like the sounds of the demo i was just trying to help the op, so i doubt ill do that just to prove my very reasonable point that analog and softube modular has some specific qualities that sound different from digital to people making outlandish claims